▷S2E5 Sublime Memories: Food and Wine Pairing with Joyce Lin

English

Nov 14

A conversation with Joyce Lin, sommelier, artist and food and wine pairing specialist. Joyce grew up in Taiwan and resides in New York City. She is a creative educator on social media, YouTube and her website, sipwithjoyce.com. Whether you prefer wine, cocktails, beer or bubble tea, there's something for everyone in this episode.

Joyce and Rose Thomas discuss pairing creativity with a wine career and how encountering new cultures increases wine pairing skill. Which Italian wines go with Sichuan hot pot, Taiwanese fried chicken, stewed pork with garlic and five spice powder, or whole steamed fish with scallions, ginger and red chili pepper? You're going want to take notes--and you may want to write them on your shopping list!

Joyce's website: https://www.sipwithjoyce.com/
Sip with Joyce on YouTube
Joyce on Instagram

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and I was like wow this is surprising and bold how can a lamp stew pair with a white wine a wine ryoha and I'm kind I'm very skeptical about that pairing and when I have my first bite and sip with the wine oh my god it's so good and they just matched with each other. And I was like, okay, this is a fabulous, fantastic example of red meat compared with a white swine. - Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. I have someone very special for today's interview, Joyce Lin of sipwithjoyce .com. Joyce is a certified sommelier and a food and wine pairing specialist. She was born and raised in Taiwan and now works as a content creator in New York City. Joyce makes wonderful educational videos about food and wine pairing, writes articles and shares recipes, all super high quality content that takes us around the world, but definitely also introduces us to some amazing facts about culture from Taiwan and features translations and subtitles in Mandarin. I'm so excited to continue learning from Joyce today since food and wine pairing is one of my favorite things to talk about. Joyce, welcome. Yay, thank you so much, Rose. Thank you so much for having me, you know, spending time talking to me and I really, really appreciate it and being honored to be on your podcast. I would love to hear more about where you grew up in Taiwan. Is there a local drink that you can share? It doesn't necessarily have to be wine or alcohol. Right. Yes, a local drink, definitely. I think everybody knows at this moment like bubble tea is actually invented in Taiwan and it has become so popular in all over the world especially in New York that there's tons of like bubble shop in the city so this drink is invented in early 1980s and it was there is a debate like who invented the string first but this it's black milk tea and then they will add the bubbles which is made by trapioca trapioca balls and then they'll add it in the black milk tea to add like texture to it. And it just all of a sudden it becomes so popular in Taiwan or over Taiwan and businessmen they're trying to you know you know there is a lot of like Chinese immigrants who live abroad like in America or in you know Japan or you know other place in the world so there is always people who live different country, but they miss the bubble tea. So they bring bubble tea to the place they live in. So I think that is a very, very special local drink that I am super proud of. And people know about it all over the place. - Oh, my kid loves bubble tea. Yes, we even got some supplies to make it at home. I think we got some taro powder and we got the tapioca and everything. It was kind of hard to make it at home. We had trouble getting the tapioca right. The texture is super important. Yeah, it has to be chewy, but it can't be like too soft. Otherwise, you lost that chewiness to it. Yeah. Is there a proverb saying or a piece of slang that you can share from where you grew up? I actually grew up in a small fishing town in southern part of Taiwan and we are very known for our seafood so I grew up eating a lot of fresh seafood and you know moving to New York I found it's really really hard to find like fresh fresh seafood or even go into like a local fish market so I think that is one of the things I missed a lot about Taiwan. Yeah, so a local slang. I actually did a little bit research on that. There's two slang that is related to drink. So the first one is called "Hotala". So it's a Taiwanese dialect and it's actually from Fujian province in China because a lot of people, the immigrants from Fujian back in the 1600s. So they carry the language here and a lot of people just, you know, speaking the language. So hodala means button up. Don't leave any drinks, you know, in your glass. Yeah, just button up. Yeah, encouraging people to you know to drink up. Yeah, so that's one of the Like saying that we use You know during family gatherings or you know friends hang out and then just you know doing some cheerful things Hey, come on, just drink up. Yeah, so hold Tala Yep, and then there is another saying and says "ho jiu dim ang de" it is also a Taiwanese dialogue and it means the best of the wine is always sitting at the very bottom of the jar and it also means that whether it's a show, a book, a movie, the best part is always left to be revealed at the And yeah, so that's like two saying that related to one that I would love to share with you all. I love those. Awesome. Those are great. Thank you so much. I have to say about the seafood. So I grew up in Nebraska, which is right in the center of the United States. And I did not see the ocean until I was 16. My cousin, she was, and she's the professor in in Nebraska University. And she moved there a couple years ago. - Yeah, that's where I went to school. - Yeah, I haven't had a chance to visit yet, but I would love to. - Oh, well, it's wonderful. It's a beautiful state, but the ocean is very far away. There was once an inland sea there, which is what created the landscape feature in Western Nebraska called the Sandhills, where I'm from, it was very beautiful, but that's far way in time and space, the ocean. So I actually have a story that I like to tell because I've lived in New York now for 11 years. I thought the seafood here was great, you know, so I'll have to go to Taiwan and so I can get to the next level. But the first time I visited people like in Long Island, you know, like in the Hamptons, I opened up a drawer and I was completely mystified at all these objects in this drawer and I said, "Why do you have so many nutcrackers?" But it was the things to crack the crab. That's right. I just did not understand. We had one of those and we used it for walnuts at Christmas time. So anyway, the seafood sounds great. Tell me about growing up in a fishing town in Taiwan. What was the name of the place? The name of the place is called Donggang and it's funny that I don't grow up in a family that we we fish but my grandpa he is a farmer my mom that she grew up in a big family so they will go to you know the farm to help and doing a little bit you know helping to the family So, the most thing I remember is my mom, she doesn't eat beef at all because my grandpa, he had a few cows to help him to farm the land. So they had a, you know, unspoken things that say, "Okay, we respect the animals who work for us so they just didn't eat beef but they but my mom didn't require me or my father to not to eat beef so that's one of one of things that make me think about okay okay there's like different culture like eating different diet stuff that we grew up with. Growing up in a fishing town I think we have abundant seafood to shop around and I never think about or appreciate it until I move you know here or when I like go to other town to college so I think right now I really appreciate that you know living in a growing up or living in a fishing town it's a privilege to me and I do miss that part yeah so every time when I go back to Taiwan I you know I'll try to have as much as seafood as possible because we had so many you know different varieties and there's tons of like good local restaurants they cook fantastic food so yeah I think that's the most you know, cherished memories that I had, yeah. - So we're gonna definitely talk some more about Taiwanese cuisine in general, in a bit when we talk about food and wine pairing, but is there anything else that you wish people in general in the world knew more about Taiwan? - It's a big question. I feel like, you know, Taiwan is a Chinese country, a little island, and we are situated in between China, Japan, and Philippines. So I don't know, like some, I feel like I'm coming from a small country and then being able to, you know, study abroad and live in New York in a, you know, international Capital City really opens up my mind and I really wanted to share my culture and let people know about Taiwan, especially the cuisine and the culture with people around the world and just let them know that we are beautiful people and We love to share and we are very friendly, good -hearted and just wanted to let people know that Taiwan is a beautiful country and we have beautiful landscapes and each province or county has specialties and I wish people can come to visit Taiwan and get to know a little bit about this country. - Beautiful. So Joyce, your videos on your website have this great formula. You start by introducing the dish, which is often, but not always, a dish from Taiwan, including a lot of research into the dish's history. Then you introduce a guest who demonstrates the dish with a cooking video, and you give this really well done, I have to say, breakdown about what wines would pair with the dish based on a number of different factors. This project is so cool. I discovered it during the COVID lockdown when you were featuring some friends who live far away showing videos of them cooking at home. I was really moved. I found it so inspiring then and I still do now. And I'm curious how did you come up with this idea to make this project? Okay. So it's actually, I have to thank Anna Christina. She invited me to join Summation during like before the like at the very beginning of COVID she asked me if I can make a video talking about like basic food and wine pairing maybe pairing a dish with from Taiwan and creating this video and being able to showcase on their platform on IG And I was like, okay, sure, I will love to because it would be fun to do it, but it took me three months to get the video done. And when the video is done, I ask Anna, do you still want it to, you know, to put it on the IG account? And she said, yes, - Of course, we'd love to. So yeah, that's my sort of like my debut video. - Anna Christina from? - Anna Christina Cabrales. - From, and what's her Instagram account? - She work at, Why Enthusiast right now. - Oh, great. - Yeah, great. - And the Instagram account is called Summation Life. - Summation Life. Okay, great. Thank you for explaining that. So what Um, so yeah, so that's, that is my very, um, first video. And, um, at that time I didn't, I didn't have the ideas, um, like I should continue to do it, but like the idea came to me, okay, maybe I can do a video, like, introduce, um, you know, cuisines from Taiwan or, you know, from Asia, and then I can do full -in -one pairing with that specific dish. So I started to ask around my friend if they are willing to do this video with me and they are like super supportive. And so that's how I started this project. And currently I have 13 videos on my YouTube channel and it's fun to do it and I find it very like the chemistry between my guests and myself and also like we work together to get this project done and at the end the reward seeing the video up on YouTube it's very you know satisfying satisfying. And I have to say we put a lot of efforts and time doing it, like filming, editing, and then think about all the why we're pairing, and then also writing the narrative, the script. It took a lot of time, but I think it's very rewarding. And I really appreciate my guests that they trust me and wanted to like do this project with me. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very beautiful website and the videos are so impressive. Having started a multimedia wine project myself recently, I can definitely see the dedication and attention to quality that goes into the project. You have also all these articles as well. One thing I have to say just as an aside is I find it, people have a hard time photographing wine in a way that's not completely boring. Right. You know, this is the shot of the bottle. It's, it's, even as a person in the wine industry, as excited as I might be about those bottles, it's always kind of the same picture. And so you, when you, on your social, or I think in some places as your website, you do these wine pairing photographs where you you lay the glass on its side on the on the table with just a little bit which is great because that's actually if you're evaluating a wine especially during blind tasting you will look you'll hold the glass that way over a white tablecloth or paper to get a sense of the color and then you have the food and like some flowers and I just have never seen anyone do wine graphs as nice as those. I feel like you must have some kind of art background. I do. I study art since I was very little. And I went to art school all the way from elementary school to college. So I guess that artsy part of me must coming from that part. I'm very happy that I find a way to incorporate the art and wine together and because you know working in the wine at this moment is my second career. So I kind of feel like oh I don't want the go of the art because it's in me and I'm very happy that I find a way to cooperate this two together because I found wine It's my passion, and I'm really, really happy that I find it in my mid -30s. And I kind of regret that, "Oh, come on, how can I not find this passion a little bit earlier?" Yeah, because I feel like I came into the wine industry very, very late if compared to other people. Now I'm trying to take time and then take it easy and absorb what I have learned in the past eight years and then just try to live a little bit because I feel like I put a lot of pressure on myself at this moment, so yeah. But I'm really happy. You appreciate the way I compose, the layout or how the way I took the photograph, I really appreciate that you like that style. Thank you so much. - Yes, no, I love it. And I would say too that I can relate as a musician and a writer coming into wine. I mean, I'm still doing everything, but you know, there's this creativity there that you know, you're just not happy if you can't use it. It's just just sitting there fermenting in not a good way. Right. So, in fact, I didn't expect to talk about music quite so much in the Motor D. Berry project, but then I immediately began meeting musicians who sing in dialect. So actually several of the first interviews that I've done are with these people. And so it's actually, you know, everything's connected. That's what I love about wine. There's so many different pieces of culture that connect to it. Exactly. Yeah, I do, I do agree. I think wine, it just brings people together and not necessarily have to be food and wine. It can be food and music or food and book, wine and book, wine and movie or in any sort of form. Yes. I mean, there's just so many things connected to learn about that I never knew I was going to get to learn about, that I get to learn about through wine, you know, certainly including languages clearly, but also geology, chemistry, you know, ancient historical borders. It's just wonderful. I think in that too, you are far from alone from people who are coming to wine as a second career. I think many people, you know, are kind of working hard as a young and just drinking whatever, whatever cheap drink is around. And then, you know, maybe you get a little established, a little more established in your life and you start tasting some bottles and you think, oh my goodness, what is this? And a lot of people do make a jump at that point. I do also teach wine with the Sommelier Society of America. And there are many people who are changing careers in this field. So, you know, you're fine, more than fine, more than fine. - Good to know. - Yeah, great. So, food and wine pairing, what's the first thing that we should know? - Wow, the first thing we should know is, I think, don't overthink. Yeah, 'cause I mean, for me, I feel like food and wine is to elevate or to highlight the entire dining experience so I mean just don't overstress it when you do it at home because you know at the end of the day if it doesn't work it doesn't work but you are still enjoying that bottle of wine right yeah so I mean there are still a few like principles that you can follow and they're super easy like seafood goes with white that people know and like red meat goes with reds but there's always exceptions and these exceptions are you know the kind of proteins of the dish or the sauce you're using, the spices you're using in the dish, the way of cooking like if you are grilling, steamed or fried or stir -fry or stew, so that all make those cooking methods you will always have to think about because they will change the flavor of the dish or the protein you cook. And also there's another one, regional food always goes with regional wine. What grows together always goes together. So yeah like sanser with goat cheese And like Austrian Gunner with schnitzel and also like beef bogeynyong with pinot noir that these are like perfect example of, you know, original food go with original wine. And there's another pairing that I would like to cover. There is two kinds of pairing, congruent pairing or contrasting pairing. So congruence pairing as the food and wine share the same weight in terms of aromas, flavors, body, sweetness, and also acidity. So think about the balance scale. If we want to put the hearty beef stew on one side of the skill, what would you choose to, you know, to what kind of wine would you choose to put on that skill in terms of the weights? For me, I would suggest a red wine, of course, and with full body, with intense aromas and flavors, maybe a little bit tannin and high acidic to balance the beef stew. - You know what comes to mind? - Yeah. - A cannelli di sardine, yeah. - Mm. - That's the Italian wine that is coming to my mind, yeah. And I think a good Chianti Classico riserva would do as well. Yeah, or-- - Maybe with some oak aging. - Yeah, exactly. Or primitivo. - Mm, primitivo is great. - Primitivo is good too. Yeah. And the other one is contrasting pairing. So that is the opposite way. So the food and wine, the weights, body, flavor, they are opposite to each other. So for, for instance, samsir and goat cheese is a great contrasting pairing because samsir is very bright, crisp, acidity has very great acidity to it and the body is kind of lean. It's not super you know heavy or mouth feel but goat cheese on the other way it's creamy. It has like milky notes to it and when you bite into it it's like coating in your mouth. So At this time, if you have a glass of sans serre, then the acidity, the fruit notes will wash down all the the criminals in your mouth. So, you know, it appears a contrasting in your mouth. Yeah. So I think this two, um, why food and wine pairing guideline would, you know, um, give our audience a, you know, a very, very basic kind of, you know, doing Fudouan pairing. - I'm thinking as you're talking about how sometimes both of those considerations can be involved in the same wine pairing. I was in Chinatown having some lightly battered, fried seafood, and the in the batter was just this light note of sweetness. And it was very light and crackly and crispy. Oh, I'm getting hungry. - Me Um, but I drank it with, with the German Spot Lazy Riesling. So this is a Riesling with a little bit of sweetness to it. But the wonderful thing about Riesling is it has always this balancing acidity. So it's this beautiful, huge acidity so that even when it does have this natural sweetness, it's never cloying, it never overwhelms because the acidity always comes around at the end and cleans your mouth. We do talk a lot about balancing fat with acid. And so I was seeing that as a contrast, but I was also seeing the sweetness in the wine and this very light sweetness in the batter that I had not noticed until I paired it with the wine kind of coming out and talking to each other. So do you think of it as having both factors sometimes in the same wine and food? - Yeah, exactly. I totally agree with you because like in Chinese cooking, no matter it's the cuisine from China or from Taiwan or even from Japan or Korea, when we cook we not always but usually it's very often we add a little bit sugar in the dish or in the sauce or you know in the Like in in the progress of making the dish So I think wine with a little bit sugar and it always brings out the sweetness of the dish So it's it's very interesting. Yeah, it's just I am not too sure how that chemistry work Maybe the the molecules or the aromas of flavor compound compound in the wine or in the dish, they just somehow they just click and matched. Yeah. So I think, you know, if you wanted to pair wine with like Chinese cuisine, always looking for wine with a little bit of sweetness, that would be a great, you know, guidance. And there are so many options for this besides Riesling too. I get really, I figure that the people who are really into Asian cuisine must get really bored when Riesling is always the answer, as perfect as it can be. Right. Chai money's cuisine in particular, I'm not too familiar with it. I've learned maybe the most I have from watching Euro videos. But here's the thing about what I just said about Asian food, Riesling, I feel like that is the entire education that people get about food and wine pairing about this huge part of the world, I feel a bit behind because most of the food and wine pairing educational materials that I have had access to are very Western or Eurocentric in the cuisines that they cover. And so that's one of the things that also really excites me about your project. I wanted to take a moment now to give a shout out to MotoDBerry's newest Patreon supporter. Jean is a new supporter of MotoDBerry on Patreon, but an old friend we've known each other for over 10 years when she and her husband and I were all stranded at the same airport in Denver during a major blizzard. We ended up in the same taxi in the snow and have remained friends. Jean, I haven't heard lately what adventures you've been on, but I hope they're all great. And I wanna say thank you so much for becoming a supporter and a sustainer of the show. If you're interested in joining Jean and becoming a Patreon supporter, you can go to patreon .com /mododibare and get access to bonus content and also make sure that the show is able to continue. If you would like a free quick way to help MotoDBerry, you can also go to Apple Podcasts, leave a five -star review and write what you like about the show. It really helps increase visibility and I appreciate it. In Chinese cuisine or in Taiwanese cuisine, we use lots of condiment and soy sauce. We probably use it in every dish. So soy sauce is made with black beans, they are fermented, so they will also have those like fermented flavor, a little bit like easty, but of course they are salty. So like whenever I wanted to pair a dish that it's cooked with soy sauce that say stew pork dish that I'll look for a wine has the same element to it like it's savory or it has a little bit Easty note and also when it has aged for a little bit longer it will have some like like oak notes or you know some earthy notes to it umami flavor. I'll try to look for why has those components in it and that's how I connect the two together and you mentioned about the sweetness too. So for the sweetness we know most of the wine are dry and then also they're a sweet wine or like of dry style but a lot of wine they have good fruitiness. We often associate with like ripe fruit notes. I think those ripe fruit notes can associate with the dishes has a little bit of sweetness to it because it will bring out or they will enhance the flavor, the sweetness in the dish. Yeah, so that's how I try to, you know, pick up each element in the dish, as well as in the wine, and find if there's something similar to it. And then I'll just, okay, let's try if those two can work together, or if they match with each other. - What about the spicy, spicy notes? what about when you're using different spicy flavors beyond the basic, okay, maybe a little bit of sweetness helps to calm the palate down after this attack? Yeah, I'll give an example of pairing a spicy hot pot. I think lots of Asian people love spicy hot pot and it's right now, it's like going crazy in New York, especially in flushing. There are tons of like spicy Sichuan restaurant and spicy hot pot place coming out. I think sweetness, having some sweetness in the wine definitely can calm the spiciness in the hot pot. And also it will like provide a coating like in your mouth Just just like milk when like when people say If you're having like spicy food, you can you can drink like a yogurt drink or drink milk It will provide a you know protection in your stomach and I think Why the sweetness in wine, you know provide similar like factors in in your mouth and then it would be able to you know keep you away from your your tongue feeling numbness or you know less than the reduce the pain but I feel like when when I had spicy hot pot because the flavor is so intense some people would suggest oh you should drink maybe have some Beaujolais like light body red to complement with spicy hot pot, but I actually don't agree with that because I feel like if you're drinking like very light Pinot Noir or Skiava or even Beaujolais, it just doesn't have enough body to support that dish. - And the intensity of the flavors could overwhelm the wine. - The wine. - The delicate flavors in the wine. - Yeah, yeah. So I would definitely look for something that has a little bit more body, maybe a little bit more fruitier. I think California's Envendo would be a great, great choice. And a Malbec would be lovely too. Just look or wine that has intense aromas and flavors, but not too tannic and not like in super high alcohol content. Oh, Malo would be great. California Malo would be great. - What about something like a lamb brusco, which should be like deep sparkling red, lots of kind of blueberry, cuckold berry flavors, sometimes dry, but still fruity, sometimes with a little sweetness. I'm wondering though about the, you know, with Szechuan cuisine and all those kind of intense little things going off in your mouth. I wonder if the bubbles would be too much or if it would be kind of fun. Well, personally, I would avoid any drinks has bubble in it because when you have Sichuan cuisine, they use a lot of Sichuan peppercorn. And those peppercorn will make your tongue numb and and it's spicy too so when you when you are drinking like sparkling wine the bubbles will make you you'll make your tongue like even more stimulated too much yeah yeah or you won't be able to be able to appreciate the texture of the bubble because there's already so much going on that's right yeah it's it's - Yeah, I think personally I feel like, okay, my tongue is already in pain and I don't want to have another components to stimulate. Stimulate it. So personally I would avoid any sparkling. - Maybe a narrow davala, like just a really big fruity narrow davala with a hot pot. - Right. - Let's talk about bubbles though and what would be good in Chinese cuisine with bubbles. One of the most classic bubbles pairings is with fried food. - I think there is a very, very famous street food in Taiwan is fried chicken, but the size is like a popcorn bite size fried chicken. And I think that would go perfectly with sparkling wine. - What is it called? Yeah, that's that's how we we call it in in Mandarin Now, what about tannins? Where can you use tannin in Taiwan cuisine and where might you want to avoid it? Okay? Tannin, I think tannin is a great agent to come by protein Right and so if you're like if we're having steak, we always want it to you know, we can choose why with some tenant who like Burdo or a big cab, because the tenant could, um, you know, could come by the protein of the steak and as well as the high acidity and tenant could cut the fat, um, you know, with the, the protein with a steak. So I think tannin is actually a good friend, not necessary a, you know, a, a, like intimidating items that we think, oh, we want to avoid tannin to pair with, with food. I think a good tannic red could go very well with stewed pork in Taiwanese cuisine or Yeah, mostly stewed meat, and then you cooked with soy sauce, with five spice powder, with some garlic in it, and yeah, so I think tannin could, it would definitely enhance and help to cut down all the fat in it, and also, you know, serve as a palate cleanser, and then pair you for the next bite. - So when you do pair Tannen with Spice, what happens? - Oh, Tannen and Spice. It's unpleasant. - Maybe we should back up a little bit for people who are really kind of just getting started in their wine journey. What is Tannen? What is that sensation like? - Tannen, I think I can find a very similar example as like you drinking tea. So if you drink enough tea or you have that black tea sitting there for you know for couple hours and you have a sip and you can feel like the grippiness or yeah the grippiness on your teeth on the surface of your teeth or like if you have lots of spinach And when you have enough, then you will feel like, "Oh, there's like a grippiness on my teeth." And they're, yeah. It kind of dries out your mouth like almost sometimes people experience it in different parts of their palate depending on who you are, but it can be this kind of like scraping sensation that dries out your mouth as opposed to acid, which makes you salivate. But sometimes in the vocabulary of people, you know, just kind of getting started to whine. People will say the word sour, but they mean something's happening in my mouth and sometimes they mean acid and sometimes they mean tannin. Because I don't think people have the word for tannin. I mean, the word is actually astringent. And that's just not something we talk about much in English. We don't use that word too often. So, you know, so tannin equals astringent and acid equals sour. - Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And, you know, for people who are just very new to wine, a good way to understand, yeah. - So another tannic wine, I'm thinking of, I have another podcast interview with Roberto Di Filippo of the Plani Arche winery in Umbria. So one of the most tannic wines ever, and certainly also in Italy is a sograntino. So that can be, I'm thinking of a sograntino with the, with the, with the pork. Now what about, we haven't talked much about white wine and I feel like we should come back to, to seafood. Is that the right direction for Taiwanese cuisine and white wines? Yeah. Because, you know, Taiwan is an island and surrounded by oceans. So we, we do have a lot of seaports and also we have, you know, abundant seafood. So yes, white wine, it's, it's a great, great, you know, options to, to pair with seafood. But it's all depends on like how you cook it. There is a very famous dish, like we, we steam the whole fish, but we just use like very simple ingredients like ginger and scallion and maybe just a few slices of red chili pepper and then that's it and then you you drizzle a little bit rice wine and then you put in a steamer steam about 10 minutes and that's a super super delicious steam fish and for that fish the flavor is very very delicate and so you wanted to choose a white wine that wouldn't overpower the delicate of the fish but at the same time like the broth coming out from the fish it has so it has some ginger and scallion the flavor in it so you might be able to want to think about how what it's what are those flavors that I can found in wine and then trying to pick a wine, be able to pair it with that fish. So what I have in mind is I think verticchio is a great, great option. Vermantino would work too and chablis would be a great option too, yeah, Or fiano, fiano is a great, you know, option, a great choice too. What about a Malvasia? Oh, yes. I find a lot of, when I think of a, I was searching my mind for ginger, ginger flavors in a wine and thinking of something that has a lot of interesting, aromatic to it would be a Malvasia, which has grown in many places and certainly all over, all over Italy and can be made with varying amounts of texture that's right to the body. Yeah. No, I love that idea. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. I love Mavazia. I can drink Mavazia all day long. There's just so much there. There's so much there. Exactly. Oh, this is so it's so exciting. Let's talk about some of these exceptions. People know these classic basic rules of of white wine with chicken and red wine with steak. What about when you want to break the rules? - I remember before pandemic, we went to Vienna just for fun and we went to a fine dining restaurant. It's the 19th of the best restaurants in the world. Yeah, so We ordered the food and wine pairing set and there is a wine dish that it's a lambe stew but in a clear broth and then I was like okay I'm very curious about you know what wine they will bring to pair with the dish and they bring out a I believe is maybe 2004, a white Rioja, Tondonia Rioja. And I was like, wow, this is surprising and bold. How can a lamp stew pair with a white wine, a white Rioja? And I'm kind of, I'm very skeptical about that pairing. And when I have my first bite and sip with the wine, "Oh my god, it's so good." And they just matched with each other. And I was like, okay, this is a fabulous, fantastic example of red meat compared with a white swine. Yeah, I can never forget about that sensation and had that evening and just like, it's amazing. - Those moments are really so magical. If I start thinking about some memories like that, they're still just very much with me. They really make an impression. Why do people care about this so much? I think it's because there's these moments where it can be really sublime. One of the first days that I was introduced to pairing was actually at a re -tour with beer and it was an Indian dish. It was chicken vindaloo with an IPA. And seeing how these two pieces become something else when you add them to something more. So my background actually, before I got into wine, was in cocktails. And I was making a lime cordial and I had put in some kaffir lime leaves and some jalapeno, and some lime juice, and some lime peel, and I think, oh, and some agave syrup. I think I was adapting a recipe from the employee's only cookbook, which is a bar in New York City, that I got when I was still bartending in the Midwest and learning everything from books. The cocktail revolution was still just there and I came to New York and it was, I was a kid in a candy store when it came to cocktails and so I developed this spicy lime cordial and what I wanted to make was a gimlet which you know these drinks change and sometimes you have to accept the evolution. A gimlet now is often you'll see as a gin sour with fresh lime juice and simple syrup but actually the gimlet was made with lime cordial, which, you know, people know roses lime cordial, right? And that was actually the original drink. And it was this, you know, packaged product. I still think it's delicious, to be honest. But, you know, people wanted something a little bit less processed. And so, I think employees only was making their own lime cordial. So when I put in these jalapenos, I tried it with gin, and then I tried it with tequila. And I think, so I made a tequila gimlet. Okay. Oh my gosh, I have to make this recipe again. It was fantastic. And there was this moment, the gin was good. But the tequila, something about the combination brought out the vegetal spicy flavors that were hidden inside of the tequila. And it just like, if you put it on a graph, it just went up, you know, and then the spice, the flavors in the cordial as well changed. So yeah, those magical moments. I remember being on the island of Orkney in Scotland. They had these little sugary sweets. And I think I had also a coffee. And for some reason, I also had a dark beer. And I was drinking all of these things together. And I was sitting there and I was crying because they tasted You know, you know, they're really unforgettable moments, you know, so I think it's something to not be intimidated by, well, none of this is something that should be intimidating. I strongly feel, but the, again, the purpose of all this knowledge is more enjoyment. That's right. Yeah, that's why I fall in love doing "Food and Wine Pairing" because I really, really enjoy the moments that for and why bring to me because it just like when I had those momentum that you encountered a great friend my parents there there's like fireworks in my in my head or you know there is like ocean waves you know in my mouth like oh my god or like you're you're having shirply with oysters, you can almost feel like there's a sea spray, like, you know, sea breeze, you know, blowing from the ocean. And you just, oh, I almost tasted the sea. I study art. So there's always like pictures or images in my head when I have this kind of moment. And now I want to put into words or maybe put everything together, you know, compose as a picture in my head. And those, you know, those ways will help me to, you know, memorize those moments I had in my life. And I think that's amazing. That's why I love "Food and Wine Parry." - Maybe you should make some artwork about those moments. - Yeah, that's a great suggestion. - Yeah, like what would the White Rio hon lamstew image look like? (both laughing) That would be a fun series. - No, I think that's great. Yeah, thank you. I think I'll definitely do that, yeah. And, you know, make it abstract. - That's fantastic, Joyce. Thank you so much. So we spoke about your website, sipwithjoice .com. Are there other places like on social that you want to point people to or your YouTube channel? Yes, I have an Instagram account. It's all related to SIPWIS JOYS and also I have a YouTube account. It's called SIPWIS JOYS. These are my platform to showcase my passions. Feel free to check it out and I constantly update them, you know, there is always ideas coming out of my mind and then, you know, do some like fun and interesting or unexpected foot of my pairing that I wanted to know. And I also want to use this platform to, you know, to let people know that, you know, there are a lot of different kind of cuisine in the world and they actually can pair with why. It doesn't have to be like why can only pair with Western cuisine or cuisine from Europe. Why can can go with you know other different kind of cuisine like Japanese or Korean or Southeast Asia, Malaysian cuisine or you know, cuisine from Taiwan, from China, and you know, China is huge. So they have different kind of, you know, regional cuisine. There's, you know, tons of, a lot to learn. So for me, I think, you know, being open -minded and, you know, ready to try different kind of pairing all together, it actually helps me to learn a different culture, also learn a different language, and learn how the people use different kind of ingredients and then make a delicious dish. So I think that's, like, broaden my mind and also help me to understand, oh, there are lots of different cuisines, wines in the world, and I just can't wait to explore more. - That's so beautiful. Thank you so much, Joyce. - Thank you. - So if we have a listener who is now feeling very hungry and very thirsty after listening to this and maybe someone who's really new to this idea, you know, or who's wanting to get more into it, and they're like, oh gosh, I'm gonna go to the store right now. - Oh God. - You know, where can someone start? What's your best advice to someone who's just getting started with food and wine pairing? - Well, I mean, I would recommend try something classic first and see how you like it or you can get the essence of that food and wine pairing. For example, duck with pinot noir. It's a classic, classic pairing. Why is it classic? Because it has been experienced for so long, so many years. So that's why it becomes a classic pairing. So I would suggest maybe try something classic first and then you can, you know, just go crazy and try something unusual. You might find something new and you like it. Or if you don't like it, then that is okay too, because at the very beginning, if I said before, if you don't like the pairing, that's fine, because you still have a very good bottle to enjoy. It sounds like a great opportunity for a potluck. Everybody brings different food and different bottles of wine, and then you pour a little in your glass and see what you like together. Yeah, I've done that before. And it worked. Oh, I want to do that right now. Let's go to the store. Joyce, thank you so much for talking with me today. It was wonderful. To all of our listeners, thank you. Wherever you go and whatever you drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Follow Motodiberi on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you would love for the show to continue and grow, support Motodiberi on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodiberi .com, where you can also sign up for my newsletter. Music for the podcast was composed by Ursilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. (singing in foreign language) El brazo payaso que permanece dejándose llevar Un otro, se engañando, se déjase para ese mismo