▷S2E6 The Boot in 20: Lombardia (with Susannah Gold)

Susannah Gold returns as the expert on Lombardia for the Modo di Bere series The Boot in 20. For each of Italy's 20 wine regions, Rose Thomas asks an expert to bring the map to life, identifying major grapes, wines, soils and microclimates. Susannah tells stories about the region's history, considers the future in terms of climate change, and shares advice about planning a visit! 

What's the smallest DOCG in Italy? What do they call the grape Tocai Friulano in Lombardia? What does the Red Cross have to do with Italian wine history? Did you know there are over 60 varieties of Lambrusco? Susannah Gold knows, and after hearing her thrilling interview, you'll know, too, and you may just start planning a trip to a new Italian destination. 

Ascolta in italiano / Listen in Italian

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The northern Italian region of Lombardia is home to the alpine nebbiolo of Valtellina and word-class sparklers of Franciacorta along with a dazzling array of other regions and wines, including Lugana, Oltrepò  Pavese, Lambrusco Mantovano and more. Rose Thomas and Susannah discuss the classic/traditional method vs. the tank method for obtaining sparkling wines and the history, vinification and exports of Italy's sweet wines. Susannah describes the three pillars of sustainability, history ancient, modern and medieval; and local products besides wine, including amaro, aperitivo, grappa, heritage grains, local salumi and world-famous marble. 

Check out Susannah's Vigneto Podcast, where she reviews wine books and talks sustainability.
She also has a wonderful wine blog called Avvinare.
Susannah is on Instagram @vignetocomms.
Susannah offers many different services to wine producers and consumers through her website www.susannahgold.com.

• Expand for auto-generated transcript. (Please excuse errors.)

  it's just a wine region that doesn't get its due. People don't pay attention to Lumberdy the way that they should and it's an up -and -coming, exciting wine region and visiting Milan is great and I mean we have mentioned about densities today so Mantua, Pavia, Brescia, Bergamo, Milano and there are all those lakes Como, Maggiore, Garda I mean they're all in Lumberdy there's so much to do. So, it's also an awesome place to go on vacation because it's different. And, you know, maybe you're tired of the, I mean, tired. You've been to Venice and Rome and Florence, and, you know, you're going back to Italy and you want to do something a little different. Think about a vacation on Lake Garda for a few days and then cycling a little trip for another few days and going and looking at the amazing museums in on and just taking the, you know, the sites in. And if you have kids, which I do, you can take them to a European kind of adventure park, which is called Gardaland, which is on Lake Garda, and it's fun. Although if you go into Prezemolo's tree, you're going to go upside down. So just giving you a shout out. Be Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast about local drinks and local sales. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. Today's episode is another edition of the Modo di Bere series, The Boot in 20, where I interview experts on each of Italy's 20 wine regions. We'll talk about history, soil, climate, great varieties, and the myriad of wines in a country where every town, much less every region, has its own particular personality. Today's episode is about the north -central Italian region of Lombardia, home to many different incredible wines. Here to bring us through the region, I am so happy to welcome back to the program, Susanna Gold. Susanna is an educator, writer, and brand ambassador who guided us through the region of Campania in southern Italy. If you haven't heard that other interview, it's episode 10 and it's fantastic. Susanna is a sommelier with ICE, the Italian Sommelier Association. She holds a diploma from the Wine and Spirits Educational Trust. She is an Italian wine ambassador. Susanna, welcome back to Moda di Mary. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. Susana has her own podcast, Vignetto Podcast, V -I -G -N -E -T -O, where she talks about sustainability and reviews wine books. She also has a wonderful blog that is named for my favorite Italian wine vocabulary word, Avinarre, A -V -V -I -N -A -R -E dot com. Susana, what does Avinarre mean? So Avinarre means to fill your glass. You know when you're tasting let's say a white wine and then you want to taste a red wine or you think that your glass doesn't look perfectly clean and you put a tiny drop of wine in that glass and then you swirl it around. That means to avinare your bicchiere or your glass and so the idea of calling my blog avinare and not vigneto was a calculated one for a couple of reasons. I started my blog in 2008, back in the day, when people were writing a lot of wine blogs, and Avinarre starts with an A, so I would be at the top of the list, but also because I thought about it like, what's in your glass? What are you filling your cup with? And at the time, it was my way to still stay connected to Italy, and I had just moved back to the States a little bit before that. So Avinarre. I know. I think of it almost as like a little like baptism or ritual preparation of the glass. And you see it too actually when a new wine glass is brought out, you know, it's like if there's any dust or anything like that, and they rinse it with wine, not with water, and it makes a nice environment. I like that. You baptize your glass. That would not have come to me, but I like that. Yeah, Avinarda is a fun word. And again, it starts with an A. So it's easy to remember. Before we dive into Lombardia, I want to ask our listeners, if you haven't done so yet, to take a moment now to head to Apple Podcasts and leave a five star rating and a real live written review. It really helps with visibility so that more people can find out about the podcast and I really appreciate it. We'll be here when you get back. Susanna, let's go to the map. Where is Lombardia located and what is the region known for besides wine? The way I think of Lombardia is it's in northern Italy and it is kind of in the center of northern Italy. What is it famous for? Lombardia is extremely famous for its capital city, which is Milan, which many people who are, let's say, in the fashion industry will know about Milan because they have a wonderful fashion industry and fashion shows and famous Italian designers like Armani have houses there and do shows there. Milan is also incredibly well known for art. So if you think about The Last Supper by Leonardo, it's not in Rome, it's in Milan, in Sant 'Ameri delle Grazie. Milan is also extremely well known in Italy in general because it's the financial capital of Italy. So I think if you think about Lombardy, it's very famous for its capital city Milan. It's also famous for Italian lakes. So there are four lakes in Lombardy or that are in Lombardy and also in a few of them are also in other parts of the country. And then a couple in Lombardy and Switzerland. So I'm thinking of Lago Maggiore or Lago di Como, so Lake Como, which many people know because they visited Bellagio or because they think George Clooney has a house there. For whatever reason, it's a lake that a lot of people know about. And many years ago, people knew about it because of the silk industry. So a lot of silk shirts and silk ties would come from Lake Como. Then there's another really famous lake in they're in Lombardy, which is called Lago di Garda, so Garda Lake, which touches on Lombardy, the Veneto, and Trentino at the tip. And then there's Lago di Zeo, which is in Lombardy, very close to the wine region Francia Corta. So those are some of the things that I think people think about. I mean, there's so much to think about there. Lombardy is a beautiful, huge region and very important in Italy in terms of history, culture, finance, fashion, and wine. If you had a friend who'd never had a wine from Lombardia, what are some of the first wines that you would suggest? Lombardy has amazing regions. I can think of about 10 that roll off my tongue because I lived in Lombardy for 10 years. I lived in Milan for 10 years. So, as you can see, it's a region that I'm very passionate about. The first wine regions that will come to mind are Franciacorta, where they make traditional method sparklers out of grapes such as Chardonnay, Pinot Noir, Pinot Bianco, and a local grape called Herbamat, and I love Franciacorta wines. They were some of my first sparklers in Italy. Lombardy is also extremely famous for its Nebbiolo, which is made in a region called Valtelina, which is a mountain region. They like to call it Nebbiolo from the mountains, so Nebbiolo is the same grape that you find in the very well -known wines from Barolo and Barbaresco. But here in Valtelina, it's made in the mountains, and it's just a beautiful, beautiful version of Nebbiolo, and they do incredible heroic viticulture because It's actually, the mountains are pretty steep and very impressive. And it's an exciting region to visit as well. I forgot to mention that there's loads of skiing in Lombardy. So people have probably skied in Lombardy as well. And in terms of wine regions that people know about, hopefully they know about Oltre Popaveze, where I am the brand ambassador. And Oltre Popaveze is actually the largest region in Lombardy. It makes about 62 % of Lumberdy's viticulture, and they make great sparkling wine, still wine, sweet wine, and they have a huge variety of grapes, but they specialize really in four. So Pinot Noir, Ultrapo has the third largest concentration of Pinot Noir in Europe, of course, after Burgundy and Champagne. And then they have great Riesling, Riesling Rieslingrenano, which is the German Riesling, is fantastic from Oltrepo Pavese. Oltrepo means on the other side of the Po, and it's a region around the city of Pavia, which is a beautiful town. And if you've ever read The Red and the Black by Stendell, they talk about Pavia. That's a beautiful, beautiful region as well for cycling. So like a bike race that goes through Italy. The Giro d 'Italia goes right through through Ultrapapavese often a lot of people in Italy like to cycle and Ultrapap was kind of like the Hudson Valley from Milan in terms of both the landscape and the proximity to a city. So anyway, I digress about Ultrapap just because it's close to my heart and they make it a really exciting sweet wine with not the best name. So Sanguidi Giuda, it means the blood of Judas, but It's a fun story behind that, and it's a sweet wine that's made from a blend of grapes. They also have a lot of bonard though there. So it's a very interesting wine region. So those are probably the three wine regions that you may know about, but then there are other wine regions that I'm incredibly passionate about as well. One of them is Lugana, a region I've worked with for eight years, and that makes just amazing, amazing white wine from a grape called Turbiana, which is also called Trebbiano di Lugana. And it is a biotype of the same grape that makes Verdicchio, so as from Le Marche. And many people think of Verdicchio as one of the Italian white wines that can age. So Lugana is also one of the white wines that can age, but it's also a great wine to drink now. It's a beautiful wine in the spring and in the summer. Lugana is made into five styles. I know tons of things about Lugana so I can wax poetic about this beautiful wine region that I really love. And it's on the shores of Lake Garda. So it's also, from a tourist point of view, a beautiful place to visit and vacation. So those are a couple of amazing wine regions, but there are many others. Should I continue? Please tell me more about these regions in Lombardia. Okay, so there are other regions in Lombardia, which are a little bit less well known at the moment, but I'm sure they're going to be famous in the future. So one of them, a region I'm really passionate about and I keep trying to get them to come here. And of course, make me the brand ambassador is called Valtenezi. Oh, I was going to ask you about this. Oh yeah, I love Valtenezi. The gropello and the chiarretto. Yes, I love gropello. It's just an amazing red, light red wine from the lake and they make it into a Rosato, which is called Chiaretto and on Lake Garda and the area is called Valtenesi and it can either be a hundred percent gropello or it can be a blend of Barbera, gropello and sometimes people use San Givese or Malzimino but a lot of producers are really making it a 100 % crepello. And I love that risotto. I mean, I like risottos in the summer, spring, and in the fall. I mean, I love the wines from Valtenes because they've got beautiful structure, you know, more depth of color than, let's say, a Provençal rosé. But it's a long history of making chiarretto in that region. They mentioned some historical documents. They call it the wine of one night. So There are different ways to make rosé. One of the ways to make rosé, which is called the bleeding off of the grapes, which in Italian you say "salasso," in French you say "saigné." So "salasso" means that you take a red wine and you take off some of the first -run juice and you make the rosé from that. So it's a much lighter style of risotto. There's a second way to make rosé, which is that you just let the grape skins macerate for a very short time, and that's really the way that the Chiarato producers do it. So what Rose was saying before was like the wine of, you know, it is a romantic story, the wine of one night, the wine of one night because the grapes were allowed to stay on their skins for 24 hours and then they were taken off the skin. So, you know, one night of passion for the grapes and a brief moment of passion for the grapes with their juice out of the skins and then they take away the skin. So that's the second way to make rosette. And other people in the past used to kind of blend red and white grapes, but people don't use that anymore. Except for in champagne. Except for in champagne. Hinds don't really, we're not saying champagne method, champagne is champagne that may be more familiar for listeners in explaining the term "metodoclassico" or "traditional method." That's what we're talking about, the fancy bubbles. They're right, the fancy bubbles. So correct. Well, I can go back for a moment and talk about "Otre Popovese," where they also make classic method, sparkling wine, this time generally from Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, mostly from Pinot Noir. "To the classic method" means that the secondary fermentation takes place in the bottle, and that's the biggest difference from the secondary fermentation taking place in the tank, which is what happens usually with a different method, which is called the Charmat method. Or the Martinotti method. Or the Martinotti method, if you want to say. Then why am I bringing that up? Yes, because Martinotti was an Italian and apparently he and the Mr. Charmat, whose French came up with the same process at the same exact time, but a Martinotti method is used generally when you talk about Italian wines that are made in this autoclave tank or Martinotti method, whereas Charmat is more kind of international as an Italian Italo file. Of course, I'd like everybody to use Martinotti, but I have to say that most people don't. - But it's the same process. I have to say, I find the tank method, the martinoti method to be really fun to watch. I was able to visit some Prosecco producers. 'Cause so basically, you know, if you go back to fermentation, you don't think about it and it's still wine because it's allowed to escape. But one of the things that happens is carbon dioxide is bubbles. And so you can trap those bubbles in each individual bottle or you and keep them enclosed in this big tank and then bottle the wine under pressure. There are also other things associated with the traditional method, like longer aging on the lease and things like this. And I understand that Francia Quarta has stricter minimum aging requirements than in that place, that other place in France where they make traditional-- - The place that we don't mention, yes. Francia Quarta does have very strict aging requirements. Also when you're making a classic or traditional method, wine, you can do the dosage differently. So, there are many different styles from sweet to, you know, Brut nature, which has, or dozzagiozero is what you would say in Italian, which has no sugar added at the end, right? Where is it standing in the quality of sparkling wines in the world? Franciacorta is a beautiful, beautiful sparkling wine that's been famous since about 1961 was the first vintage, and the maker, you know, the creator of this wine region was someone named Guido Berluchi with Franco Zilliani. And what happened was he looked at the soil, he visited Champagne, and he loved Champagne, and then he looked at the soil at home, which as I said at Marble, because because this is all right. Buticino is near the same areas in Brescia. So he looked at the soils in Champagne. He thought, well, we have those chalky limestone soils near me as well. So why can't I make an amazing sparkling wine? And that's how it started. And his first vintage was in 1961, which is a wonderful wine from Perluki, which I have had. And it's just a really, really lovely version of sparkling wine, you know, compared to the Champagne, French Eclipse does not have a 200 -year -long history, like, or longer, like Champagne does. But certainly, you know, these wines can give Champagne a run for their money. I mean, they're really, really fine sparkling wines, and some of them are aged for 60 months, so that's five years on their lease. I mean, you know, just profound beauty you can find in some of these Francia Corta wines. And when I first lived in Milan, you would go to a bar and they'd ask if you wanted a sparkling wine and they would literally say, "Do you want a Berluki or a Ferrari?" Which is the maker of sparkling wine in Trentino. Those were the choices. They wouldn't say Francia Corta or Trenta Doc. Now they would. So So Franciacorta is very famous at home and now also abroad. They've done a whole bunch of work here in the United States through the years as well. - They are just bringing it. They are giving every other wine a run for their money. They are trying to make the best sparkling wines in the world. They're really trying to earn that reputation and bring that quality. - And there is also a still wine that's made in Franciacorta called Kurti Franca. So Franciacorta as a region, the area, used to be like a text -free zone. So it's been famous, you know, since like the year 1000, it's a very famous historical region as well. The traditional method is generally used in Italy in about four different regions for sparkling wine, Francia Corta and Oltre Popavese and Lombardy specifically. And then there are two other areas that are not in Lombardy, but we can mention them. One is Alta Langa, which is a beautiful sparkling wine region in Piedmont, wine made in Piedmont. And then of course, Trento Doc in Trentino. But everywhere else in Italy, people generally, when they make a sparkling wine, use the martinotti method. And why is that? So the martinotti method is not so much about kind of the creamy, yeasty, toast, brioche expression that you get, like in a beautiful Franciacorta. It's more about the primary aromas of the fruit. And That's why most Prosecco, although not all, there's a tiny bit of Prosecco that's made in the classic method, is made with the Charmat method because they're trying to keep the primary aromas of glera, which is the principle grape variety that's used in Prosecco. Just like in Asti, they use the Martinotti method because they want to keep the primary flavors of muscata. Yes. And the other big difference is time, Because with the bottle -aged traditional or classic method, the terms mean the same thing. You are spending this time on the leaves, which are the spent yeast cells, and as those break down, it contributes to those toasty bread flavors, but it also makes the bubbles less bouncy and more persistent. But it's different bubbles for different occasions. Well, also, it's stylistically what people are looking for. And this leads me back into Lombardy because another wine that's made this way is lambrusco. When you have a frizzante lambrusco, it's usually made in the martinotti or tank method. Lambrusco, generally speaking, people think of lambrusco coming from Emilia Romagna, but there also is an amazing lambrusco that comes from Lombardy. There's a delicious lambrusco mentovano, and I believe that the "Lambrusco mantovano" is made from lambrusco viedanese, I think is the name of it. Viedanese is, I believe, the name of the particular lambrusco variety that is made into lambrusco mantovano. In Lombardy, the name of the wine is "Lambrusco mantovano" from the city of Mantova, but great varieties that have the name "Lambrusco" there are over 60 of them. Most of the ones that make lambrusco in Emilia Romagna, there are like seven that people focus on really. And four that are even more famous and maybe someday we'll have a lambrusco conversation 'cause I'm a huge lambrusco fan. - I am here for that, I am here for that. - As you can see, but we'll be drinking at that time because we are not drinking now. But lambrusco mantavano is a really fun wine from Lombardy which I wanted to mention, so I'm glad we were able to bring the conversation back to Lombardy. And then there's some other interesting wines that come from Lombardy that you can find. For example, there's a really, really interesting sweet wine that comes from Lombardy called Moscato Discanso, and it's one of the smallest or the smallest DOCG in Italy, and it's made from and Moscato, which is very interesting that there's a red Moscato grape, but there is and it's one of the very, very few red sweet wines in Italy. Some of the others ones that I can think of are like, you know, Ricciotto della Valpolicella, Sangue di Giuda also is a red from Oltrapopavesa is also a sweet red wine, but Moscato di Scanzo is very famous and having talked about Moscato Moscato Discanso, there may be 19 producers or some very small amount of producers of this. Wasn't there a story with Moscato Discanso being admired by Catherine the Great? There may be. I don't actually know that story, but very possibly. I know about Moscato Discanso because I used to do some work with Bergamo and Moscato Discanso comes from Bergamo, and it's the sweet wine from the area, whereas the still wine from the area around Bergamo is called Valcalepio. Have you ever heard of Valcalepio? So Valcalepio is the wine region near the beautiful northern lumbered city called Bergamo, which Bergamo is a beautiful, beautiful city. There's Bergamo Alto and Bergamo Basso. And so the wines that from the area are called Val Calepio, and that's kind of the DOC from there. And that's really lovely as an area and Moscato Discanso is right near Bergamo, so those are the wines. - I'm looking this up, and this is the story that I remember, that Giacomo Quarengi, who was a famous architect and painter from Bergamo, supposedly gave Catherine the Great of Russia a gift of Moscato Discanso. - Oh, So then it ended up traveling from Russia to London and became popular in London. What do these sweet red wines taste like? The red wines have a lot of sweetness, but they also have structure. And of course, the flavors are not the apricot, caramel, golden apple that you might find in a honey that you'll find in a sweet or Pasito dessert wine, right? So the red wines have more berry fruit, more kind of soto spirit, which means like, like, um, like under like cherries under alcohol kind of thing. Like they like to say the Amarasca, which is kind of cherry. Um, and there have a lot of kind of forest floor and like that dark fruit notes and some spice and generally speaking they're really good with cheese or with a really dry dessert. So they're my favorite dessert in the world is a dessert from Mount Ava which is called las brisolona. It's like a really hard kind of chort you know, like a tart, it's got nuts and all of these dried flavors. It's like really, it's a dry, you know, a dry rather than a wet kind of pound cake dessert. And it's this bit of solona because you, you know, you break it and it breaks into little pieces. It's just amazing. It's not like a crumb cake. It's like a better, but the topping of a crumb cake is sort of got some of the same aromas and flavors, but this has more nutty notes, and it's great. I love Spursolona. I would love that right now, in fact. Me too. Can we just get on a plane? Yeah, let's get on a plane. Or are you just trying to find this in New York? I don't know if it's possible. I don't know. I don't know. I've never seen Spursolona on any dessert menu. It's a really fun dessert. But speaking You know, dessert wines are hard sell and very few people drink dessert wines after dinner in the States. So these are... I would love to change that. That was the first thing that changed for me when I got into wine, when I started to learn about the process and everything that goes into these wines and about how prized they've been throughout history and the labor and the... When I got to meet some producers who, you know, talked about these processes and how precious they are. Tell us about, why is it called Pasita? Why am I getting so excited about you saying that dessert wines are underrated? So dessert wines are underrated because of the way we eat our meals in America. Also, we don't generally finish with a wine. First, we didn't initially drink wine at dinner. Now we drink wine at dinner, but we tend not to have a dessert wine at the end of the meal, right? So I usually drink my dessert if I can, rather than eating it. I'd rather drink my calories than eat them. I mean, I feel that way about all food, generally speaking, but especially about dessert wine. So the process of making a dessert wine is generally something that's extremely historic. Often these dessert wines were given, let's say, to the local priest. and they're always made in small quantities. Nobody ever makes a huge amount of dessert wine. So there are different ways that you can make dessert wine. One of them, a passito means dried grapes, that you've used dried grapes. You can dry grapes in a variety of ways. So you can either dry grapes on the vine and pick them in late November, early December, when they've lost most of the water and it's kind of like a raisin on the vine. That's one way to get dry grapes and then you press that, right? And then you would put that however you're fermenting that and then aging it. And often, desert rinds are aged in small oak barrels, but not all the time, but often. So that's one way to dry the grapes. Another way to dry the grapes is on something called gratici, which are of you know wooden flats that have slats in them and you dry the grapes and that's another way and then you and you do that in a in a room let's say in Tuscany you would call a vincentaya so that's where vincento is made in other parts of the country would be called a frutayo like the fruit is drying on these on these in these racks and it's really beautiful if you've ever seen it people also dry grapes on strings, that's also really exciting to see, grapes drying, and all of this is raising the grape. And of course in the past, people would lie the grapes out on mats in the sun, and they would dry grapes by the sun. Now, when people pick the grapes, sometimes they put them in crates and they let the grapes dry on top of each other in a room that has air conditioning in it, or the windows are open, so there's ventilation. And of course, we haven't even talked about, in Italy, there are different ways and names for grapes. So it could be muscato discanso, it could be a passito, a wine could be vendemia tardiva, which means late harvest. It could be grano or, you know, it's like VGN, so they, you know, selected grapes. So there's a lot of different kind of nomenclature as well about different sweet wines. So when you're, when you're taking all of that water out through this process of time, you're being left with very, very little juice in the grape, but it's so concentrated. And so sugary. You just get this like soul of the grape, but it's just these, these really incredible flavors. And then, of course, there is that sugar, and that's a preservative. And also, there's going to be plenty of acid, too, because if you're going to be making a late harvest wine with any balance, you're going to be choosing a grape with some nice acidity, too, so that even though it's got this wonderful sweetness, then that is a wonderful acidity to come and clean your mouth. And they're just very precious and prized. And you know, It's a lot of work to make these things for just a few bottles. Yeah, it's a lot of work and they're very expensive and that's another reason I think that they don't do so well on American menus, but it's really because we lack that tradition for the moment. Well, people understand about drinking coffee after dinner and they're starting to drink Italian Amaro after dinner, so maybe that can be the next step. Let's bring it. Let's see. Anyway, so there's this very, there are these two amazing sweet wines that are very specific just to Lombardy. One is Moscato Discanso, which is a DOCG, which as we talked about means it's a denominazione d 'origine controllata in garantita, which is the highest level of Italian wine. And then we have Sangui di Giuda, which is is a DOC from Oltrapapavese. Before we stop talking about viticulture in Lombardy, I just want to mention a couple of other really, really small regions. Oh, please tell us how the regions. So one is called Boticchino. And Boticchino, they used to have a DOC, but at the moment they're really like four producers making wine there, but they're amazing wines. And they are in this area near Francia Corta, so near the town of Brescia, and they're near a marble quarry. So a lot of marble comes from the area of Brescia, like the marble, for example. In the White House, there's a fireplace that was the marble comes from this area. And there's a big altar in Rome called the Ara Pacis, which actually also comes from Boticchino. So the soils, my point is that the soils, this kind of limestone calcareous soil, so it makes these really great wines. It's called Boticchino, and then there's another one, which is called Monteneto, tiny little areas in Lombardy that makes the best marzimino I've ever had, and I love marzimino, a really fun red grape variety and a particular producer I'm thinking of called "Sami Kele" makes amazing marzimino in a host of different ways, including a marzimino passita, which are those wines that you're like, "Why can't I get that here? Why can't I drink that here today?" Oh, you know, real quick, while we're talking again about sweet wines, I have to mention "Sforzato." Of course. So, "Sforzato" is not a sweet wine, though, so it's not really a sweet wine. But it is made with the dried. It is. But it's like saying "Amarone" is a sweet wine, right? Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. Sforzato is a nebiolo made in Valtellina that does have dried grapes as part of the fermentation. And it's a very important and very special nebiolo from Valtellina. It's called sforzato, or what they would say in dialect is sforzat. And it's really special and It reminds me a lot of Amidona in terms of the process of how you make it and the dried grapes, but I would not necessarily say that that's in the same category. No, no. You're right. But as far as the dried grapes, I did have this experience of being in a fruitio, which was actually a barn where you would open the front door of the barn and you would open the back door of this loft this old barn loft with the different grapes drying for the to make the Sforzato and it was just a beautiful you know with the mountain air coming through. Oh my god it's amazing. Yeah you know I gotta put in another word for the the Nebiolos of the Valtelina region the the terroir is completely different completely from the Nebiolos that you may have heard of from the Langae region in Piedmonti the alpine character the the lacy body, beautiful berry flavors in the just lifted nature, and it's just, yeah, they're made on the Alps, in the Alps. Yeah, they're great. No, I mean, I love those ones. They're beautiful. And they also, "Valtelina," shout out to "Valtelina" for their "Brizala," which is a charcuterie from there that I love, and I used to eat every day for lunch when I lived in Lombardy. They have great cheeses in, I mean, these are mountainous regions, so they have amazing cheeses and you know, charcuterie and other delicious things and really fun pasta which is called pizzocchiri which is made from the grano saraceno which is like a saraceno means like the saracens so it's a dark pasta that's only grown here in valterlina in this region valterlina in lombardy and it's called grano saraceno and the the Pasta itself is called pizzocchetti. - Similar to buckwheat, the word. - It's similar to buckwheat, but a little stronger and a little darker and a little grainier. - So I, on my trip to Valsalina, which pretty much changed my life, it was so beautiful and such an adventure that I remember the pizzocchetti very well and it's this thick kind of rough cut pasta just slathered in this wonderful cheese that doesn't really melt all the way with cabbage and potatoes. So it's just this incredibly hardy and meal and as you're eating it, it's like the cheese from, you know, a slice of pizza that you're lifting from the from the pie, just trailing off of your fork and, you know, through the air and it's it's got and it's like very heavy food. Delicious, delicious, but you have to have the right mountain hiking after, you know, it's the kind of thing like if you worked on a farm and you ate that for breakfast at, you know, five in the morning and then you really worked hard all day, but wow. - And it's these incredibly steep, steep vineyards that are so ancient and just take such an intense amount of manual labor. And it's really, so yeah, - It's a very special area. - You need your energy to do that kind of work for sure. - True, true. So I think we've covered most of the areas that I wanted to mention in Lombardy and I always feel that it's a wine region. Oh, no, I forgot one. So Milan has its own wine and it's called San Colombo. I forgot to mention that San Colombo and it's there's a consortium and it's right next to it's right next to the city. And there are a few producers who are producing wines there, and if you got to visit Milan, you can actually go to a winery. So, yes, now I feel like I've done Lombardy Justice. So what I was trying to say was that it's just a wine region that doesn't get its due. People don't pay attention to Lombardy the way that they should, and it's an up -and -coming, exciting wine region. And visiting Milan is great. And I mean, we have mentioned about tensities today. So Mantua, Pavia, Brescia, Bergamo, Milano, and there are all those lakes Como, Maggiore, Garda. I mean, they're all in Lombardy. There's so much to do. So it's also an awesome place to go on vacation because it's different. And you know, maybe you're tired of the, I mean, tired. You've been to Venice and Rome and Florence and you know, you're going back to Italy and you want to do something a little different, think about a vacation on Lake Garda for a few days and then cycling on El Tripoli for another few days and going and looking at the amazing museums in Milan and just taking the, you know, the sites in and if you have kids, which I do, you can take them to a European kind of adventure park, which is called Garda Land, which is on Lake Garda and it's fun. Although, if you go into Prezemolo's tree, you're going to go upside down, so just giving you a shout out. Just be ready. Be ready. Yeah. But it was fun. I mean, little kids, my son now, he's eight and he thinks like, "Oh, that was for little kids." I'm sure he'd find things to do. But it was great when he was about six. We really loved it. Now, we called this a big wine region, but this is all kind of in relative terms, right? So really what I experienced during my recent lovely, lovely trip to Lombardia was things are, you know, if you, if you run a car, which can be very helpful for, I will say all of these lakes and stuff that you can get to on the train and it can make a really nice little tour. But it does help when you, if you want to visit wineries to go ahead and do the driving and be ready and don't, don't let them talk you into upgrading into a bigger car. Because with the mountain roads, you want something a little smaller. I mean, but you know, it's mostly big, big highways and stuff in Lombardia too. So, but you know, it's like two hours, two hours up to this part, and then two hours back to this part. So it's not, if you wanted to hit some of these wine regions that, that, that you're talking about, you could, you could definitely spend, I don't know, a week or something, you could have an amazing, you could spend more. Yeah, you could spend more. But if you had a week, then you could do a week and you could do a lot of stuff in a week. No, it's a small region, relatively speaking. I just meant there's so much going on here that I think people don't realize. They think, "Oh, yeah, there's French Accord and that's it, or there's Veltelina and that's it," and that's just not true. There's really a lot going on here. I'd like to take a moment at this point in the show to thank our Patreon supporters. This support is vital for the show to be able to continue, and I really appreciate it. If you're finding Motodibare educational, entertaining, or both, if you're perhaps a student of wine who is finding particular value in the Boot in 20 series, I hope that you'll hit pause for a second and head over to patreon .com /motodibare, where you can join other fans of drinks and dialect and unlock bonus content. I'd love to be able to continue to do this work. Another great way to support the podcast is to tell someone about it. If you have a friend or a colleague who is a language nerd or a wine lover, please send them a link to the show. A word of mouth referrals and posts about MotoDBerry are an amazing way to support this work as well. Thanks so much for listening. Can you talk to me a little bit about the major climatic and geological features? We mentioned the marble, we mentioned the Alps. Sure. There are the Alps and the Apennines, of course. There's the Po River, which is the largest river in Italy that runs right through Oltrapapavesa near the town of Pavia. So that's a very big influence on the area. There's the Pianura Padana, which means the planes of Padania is the ancient name for Milan and Lombardy. So there's a huge plain that runs from the Po to Emilia Romagna. In some parts of Lombardy, for example, in Oltrepo, you have the influence of the mountains that comes down from Piedmont as well. But you also have the influence from the Ligurian Sea, which comes up at the very tip of Oltrepopovese, touches Liguria. So, it's the ultrapapavezes shaped like a grape bunch. So, it touches Emilia, it touches Piedmont, and it touches Liguria. So, another climatic influence is the sea, so the Ligurian sea. So, you have Alps, mountains, rivers, different topography. I'm thinking there are no volcanoes that I can think of in Lombardy, but you know, you have a lot of different soils because there's different elevation in places. The places that are planted that are closer to the Po River, of course, flat, the Nebula from the mountains that you're getting in Valtelina is on very high elevation slopes. The wine region around Lake Garda is also very flat. Lugana goes from about 80 to 150 meters above sea level, which does well to Tennessee. So, you know, very not high elevation. And the other thing to remember is there's a lot of kind of commission, as what you would say in Italian. But in English, you would say kind of transferring of interest of grapes and knowledge. A lot of producers in Lombardy, let's say, also have vineyards in the Veneto, for example, certainly on Lake Garda. I mean, Lake Garda, Lugana is a combination that belongs to two regions, so Lombardy and the Veneto. A lot of producers who make wine in Lugana have their headquarters in the Veneto, and all of that influence from the Veneto winemaking, all of that is huge. Veneto is one of the biggest producing regions in Italy. But at the same time, Lombardy is impacted by Piedma. Look at Nebiolo came from Piedmont. So there's a lot of crossover there, or from Emilia Romagna. There are grapes that grow in and styles of wine that are kind of fizzier, lighter, and more frizzante, like the lambrusco that you see in Emilia Romagna, in Mantova, and also in Oltrepapavese near Pavia, because they're very close to Emilia Romagna. And then you get influences from the Guria, which is also close. And, you and there's a lot of different great varieties that you'll come across in Lombardy that you found in the neighboring regions. Were you saying that Nebula originated in Piemonte? In Piemonte, yeah. It also grows in the Valdosta, which borders with Piemonte. What I'm trying to say is there's a lot of crossover between the different regions because you were asking about climatic and topography. Also, those lakes are so huge. The lakes are huge. They really moderate the climate. They are. When I was in Valtelina, I was so ready to wear my coat. Of course, we were just blessed with beautiful weather, but the mountains are so tall. You're right there in the Alps. You're right there on the Swiss border. But it was early spring and there were so many flowers, already roses, just these beautiful succulents growing out of all of the rock walls. And it's It's just this wonderful protected warm spot with the moderating influence of those big bodies of water. And also the big mountains, right? So they protect you from the Tramontana, which is the northern wind. So there's a lot happening here, but yeah, I mean, Lake Garda is the biggest lake in Italy. It's much bigger than actually Como and Maggiore, and it's very deep. It's the deepest lake in Europe or the second deepest after Lake Balaton. So that's a huge influence on viticulture in the whole area. Yeah, those are, I would say, the big kind of topographical influences. And there, as you're saying, a lot of these areas have this Mediterranean -like microclimate because of the lakes. So it the cold winds. I mean, you grow, the great olive oil comes from Lake Garda, like Cirmione or these beautiful places. And of course, there's also so much history and culture. I was just thinking of Cirmione because Catellus' villa, Roman villa is in Lake Garda. Oh yeah. What are some wine history or general history stories from Lombardy? History stories from Lombardy? Well, Lombardy has a very long history. There's one more region I forgot to mention, which is called San Martino de la Batalla, and this is history. So San Martino de la Batalla is near Lake Garda, and it's around the lake of the area of Lugana, but it's a tower, just the tower of Saint Martin. And it's the location of a horrible battle that went on in the 1800s, and there's a story behind this story. So there's a battle that went on in the 1800s between the troops that were loyal to Vittorio Manuele, who was the Italian king. This is before Italian unification, Italy was unified in 1861. So it was like Vittorio Manuele was from the Duchy of Savoy, so from Piedmont. And his forces were battling the Austrians, right? And the battle was called the Battle of Solferino, which is a town near the Samartin de la Batalla. And what happened was both sides met around this tower, but they didn't know that the other side was there and they went to sleep. And in the morning when they woke up, they woke up in the middle of, you know, a neighboring conquering enemy right nearby. So they hadn't really prepared the battle as those battles at the time were prepared. So there was just bloodshed everywhere. And there was a man who walked through this devastation. He happened to be Swiss, and he was a doctor, and he walked through this devastation. And his name was Henri Dunant. And he walked through this devastation, and he thought, I never want to see anything that looks like this again. And he came up with the idea that with a white flag, he could get the wounded away. And Henri Dunant is the founder of the Red Cross, and he founded the Red Cross and the Geneva Principles because of the Battle of Sofrigno, which took place around the tower of San Martino, which is San Martino della Battaglia. It's a DOC, it's a very small DOC, and they make wines, ready for this? They make wines from the Tokai grape, which as we know, you're not allowed to call Tokai in Italy because it's a region in Hungary. So the grape itself is the same grape that you'll find in Friuli, which they call Friulano. In San Martino della Battaglia, it's called Tuki. Oh, I love this. T -U -K -I, Tuki. So it's very small area. Maybe they're like 19 hectares. I mean, even smaller, I think, than Moscato di Scanzo. So a friend of mine happens to make wine here. He used to be the president of the Lugana region, a consortium. But he also makes wines in San Martino de la Battaglia. And actually, on his land, he has a wine dedicated to Henri Dunon. And I believe part of the battle of Soferino took place on his land. So this is how I learned this amazing story. And he has this huge plaque to the Red Cross in his winery. So that's a story. Catellus, going back many, many centuries, Catellus's villa is a Roman villa in the middle of Cermione. And then of course we have the castle in the Castellus Forzesco. Smack in the middle of Milan is a huge fortress castle to the famous family. So, you know, in every region in Italy, in every main town, there was generally one family that was like the warring family that ran everything. So in Milan, it was the Sforza, I think, and the Viscontis. But I believe in Mantova, it's the Gonzaga family, because I'm thinking of Palazzo del Teio, which is a really famous palazzo. And of course, the Leonardo's has many works of art that are whether it's the Last Supper and Santa Mero de la Grazia, which we mentioned, or one of his pietà, is in the museum in the Castellas Forcesco. It's called the Rondonini Pietà, and it's one of the last ones of his pietà. And of course, we cannot not mention the Duomo of Milan, which is just amazing and huge, and topped by a statue, which is called La Madonina. So Milan is a city that is very dedicated to the Virgin Mary, La Madonna, right? La Madonina. And she's gold, and she's the symbol of the city. I have climbed to the roof of that Duomo. It's beautiful. And my Italian conversation partner lives in Milan. So when I'm in Italy for Venetale, which is a giant wine fair that takes place in Verona in the spring, I always try to stop in Milan and see my friend Teri. She took me in my first visit to climb to the top of the Duomo. And it is, it is just stunning. It's huge. It's covered with all these beautiful carvings. And of course, there's another famous Duomo in Italy. And I was saying the Duomo and my husband was saying, oh, no, you know, that's not the tallest Duomo. And then so we looked it up. It's, it's slightly, slightly less tall than Florence, but it's gigantic. Yeah, it is gigantic. To me, I also lived in Florence. So those are kind of my two cities, Milan and Florence. And I just feel very differently. Like Santamaria de Fiori is the name of the Florentine cathedral. And it's just a totally different, like Florence is a painted city. Like the churches are striped, right? Which is so amazing. They're striped green and white, red and white. I mean, just beautiful, exciting color. Whereas Milan, it's like the Duomo is just white. It's striking. It looks like a white wedding cake. It's so lacy, especially when you're up on the top and all the lattice work up there. It's also Milan is a very Catholic city and the symbol of Milan is kind of a white flag with a cross and a red cross in the middle of it. I mean, not that all of it is in a very Catholic country, but Milan in particular, you just kind of associate it with that Duomo. And their bishop is very famous in terms of history and power within Italy. I'm trying to think of other kind of historical notes about Milan. I mean Milan is so important in Italian unification and the relationship with the king and the Duchy of Savoy and all of that. It's a very modern city as well. It's probably the city that most foreigners live in. I mean, a lot of foreigners also live in Rome, but usually people who work for international organizations or in some way are in cinema or, you know, a lot of journalism comes out of Milan, for example, certainly financial journalism. And it's just a very big financial city. And you're really close to the rest of Europe from Milan. It's from Milan. But it was taken over by the Habsburgs and the Austrians. So it also looks like an Italian city, but this is sort of when I was living, when I first moved to Milan from Florence, I ran into a British woman I know, and she said to me, "Milan is nice because it's near Italy." And I was like, "What do you mean Milan is nice because it's near Italy? It's in Italy. It's not, you know, near Italy." She was like, "Yeah, but it's something different. It's also got a more international flavor. And I think that is true. And that's even more true today than it was when I lived there because of the expo. So the world expo was in Milan in 2015, and they had just, they cleaned up that city. It's so beautiful and exciting now. And it's very really fun place to visit. It's also where they make apparel. Oh, yes. Well, I mean Milano da Bere, like you, you always like saying, so I was thinking this morning like, "What sayings? What do I know in Milanese?" You know, in Lombardo as an expression, I was thinking of a few things. And then I was thinking of Milano da Bere, which was like Milan in the 80s, was like a big drinking capital, but La Peritivo that we like to do in America now comes from Milan. Like, that's how you eat dinner. You go to an aperitivo, you have one drink. It's not the way we drink in America. You have one drink and the bars all put out amazing charcuterie and cheeses and snacks and olives and, you know, that's, you go, you can walk by, you can go by yourself and you know if you go to X bar, you'll meet 30 people you know. And not you're meeting them like random people at a bar. You mean your friends. Like they travel in these huge groups and they're like, And it's great. I mean, I loved living in Milan for that reason, too. You never felt lonely. You always had people to go out with. Milano da Bere is a big kind of Milano thing from the '80s. Again, every single town in Italy has its own dialect. In Valtellina, I was finding that each neighboring town would have dialects that were mutually unintelligible. So, it's hard to say, "Oh, what's a saying from Lombardia, I will say in my cornucopia of ways to say "let's go" on diamo. It would be Italian, Italian. But I find a lot of versions that sound like "ndum" or "ndum" as far as like, "Hey, let's go." Oh gosh, just so many just beautiful different variations. There's also a lot of different Amaro made in Lombardia, a lot of different kind of alpine, herbal drinks. So, you know, besides wine, there's also a lot of grappa being made as anywhere around Italy, but it's some very interesting grappas. Well, sure. I mean, you know, Ferdinand Brandt comes from Lombardy, but they didn't, they don't drink it the way we drink in the United States. Like, none of that, none of that, none of that goes on there. That's not what it is. You know, it was really like a digestivo. Like, you know, "Stay male." Here's a Braulio. You know, Braulio also comes from Lombardy. So if you drink Braulio, which is an intense, you know, big, you know, amaro, if you drink it, you would drink it because it was like having bicarbonate that would help you really digest your food, like serious, you know, it was not the way it became, Ferdinand Prank became. - As like a shot, like. - Yeah, God, no. No, no, no, no, no. Never drunk like that. I think it's still not. If you do have a big Amaro fan in your family, I would also be both the wine and the Amaro fan can do a little tour when you're doing your trip to Lombardia and ask about the local Amaro because there's a lot of really interesting ones from this region. Yeah, they are. They're a lot. Yeah, I mean, I love Amaro, but in a modest way. Sure. Like I'm not out doing shots of Jägermeister. No, it's part of the whole course. It's part of the whole. Everything has a purpose. It's interesting what takes off here and what doesn't, and why to see something that you would see in one place in a certain way used somewhere else differently. It's very interesting, but great. I mean, I'm sure they couldn't be happier that we're also into Amaro here. I mean, there's so many lists in the city now. It's like 30 Amaro on your list. It's like, really? You have that, you know, "Vecchio Amaro "Vecchio amaro del capo" or things from Calabria or Le Marche, that's amazing. Oh, I think it's wonderful. Yeah, it's fun. That's the panoply of options. It's fun. Yeah. East Different Town has its own language, its own cake, its own salad, its own wine, its own grappa, its own amaro, its own aperitivo, and it's just absolutely endless. I'm really glad to have you to take us through the different Rhine regions. Listen, if people are feeling, "Oh my gosh, I can't keep all of this in my mind," we're definitely going to have you hold up a map, and we're going to make a video for social media so you can say, "Okay, here's Franciacorta. Here's these different places," so you can just get a little bit of an idea. Going back to some of these grapes. Of course, Lombardia has been growing international varieties and doing great things with them for a long time. But speaking of some of the indigenous grapes, can you just introduce us to these grapes as like, this is my friend, Bernarda, and Bernarda tastes like this. What are some of the flavors and personalities of some of your favorite indigenous grape varieties of Lombardia? Bernarda is not a grape from Lombardy. Oh, it's a wine. It's a wine. Yes. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Okay. So that's a good one because Bonata is a grape that you'll find in Piedmont, but not Lombardy. It's a wine in Lombardy that's made in Otrepo, but it's made from croatina. Yes. So the grape is croatina, and croatina can also be made into a blend with Barbera and other grape varieties, but generally speaking, people are really tending to make 100 % croatina when they make a Bonarda wine. But it's also a grape. In Piedma, not in Lombardy. I'm so glad that we're all here figuring these things out together because it is very complicated. It's also... That's why we're here. That's why we're doing this. It's complicated. Also, in Argentina, they grow bonarda and, you know, they confuse it with barbara. But in Lombardy, there's no bonarda. It's a wine called bonarda, DLC. It's a historic denomination in entre popavés. And the grape is croatina. Mm, thank you. And of course, I know this because I work with them. I mean, you know, I lived in Italy for a very long time. I've been working with Italian wines for years and years and years. This isn't just like, oh, I read a book. Like, that's why I know that because otherwise it's all very confusing. So if people are confused, I get it. But just stick with it and you'll learn a lot. What does crottina taste like? Crottina, the way that it's usually made, is very kind of spicy and really, really dark red fruits like, you know, really dark cherry and a lot of peppery flavors. It's Also, sometimes it can have a little bit of an herbal note. It's a fun grape. It's like, I love bonardo that's made in the frizzante style because there can be a still bonardo or a frizzante style bonardo. That's what I was saying before. So bonardo, the wine is usually grown in the southern area, the southern tip of Lombardy in Oltre Popavese, which is right near Emilia. So it's a style of wine that's kind of friendly, we'll cut through a fatty dish like gnocco frito, which is like a fried, it's like, it's not a taco 'cause it's a different consistency, the dough, but gnocco frito is like a fried little pouch that you put charcuterie into. So like el amor de sua drinking, you know, eating that, which means it's like it's his death. It's his death. The death of you. Not the death of you, like El Amorte. So it's like his death to eat it together with this wine. So like having Yocufrito, which is a thing from Emilia, not from Lombardy, but with the Bonarta wine is fantastic. You could also have it with Lombusco from Mantova or Lombusco from Emilia. And Bonarta is made, let's say, there's this amazing producer that that I was lucky enough to meet this year from Castello Luzano, and she makes wine in Lombardy, and she also makes wine in Emilia Romagna. And in Emilia Romagna, croatina is made in a wine called Gutturno, which you may have heard of. Yes, I believe that was mentioned in an earlier episode, the interview with Mikaylo Mussolino, which was about seven Italy, but she talked about Gaternione. She said something about drinking it out of a bowl, which I had never heard of. It's sort of a funny. From Emilia Romagna. Yeah, like the different kind of drinking vessels. Oh, I don't know. I don't know that. That's interesting. There's always more. There is always more. And I'm so glad that I, that I made a banana mistake because that is just the kind of thing. Yeah, a lot of, I mean, It's a lot. It's really something to get into Italy because it's really, really endless. Yeah, it really is. But that's the front of it. But there's always going to be, I think so, there's always going to be something new. So you know, for anybody who's thinking, "Oh my God, so many different things to memorize." No, no, no, no. That's not, so many things to drink, so many things to enjoy, so many things to discover, so many places to visit. I wanted to ask you about kind of opportunities and challenges. Maybe for Francia Corta it's helping with the education to understand what they're doing and why those wines cost maybe still less than a champagne but more than a prosecco and why someone should find that something to savor. But in the region in general, also considering climate change, sustainability issues, what do you see or what do you hope for in the future of Lombardia, both for the wines and producers themselves and in the international market. - So in Francia Corta, for example, there's a producer I've been friends with for many years whose name is Riccardo Ricci Corabastro. I believe he's still the president of Federdoc, which is the DOC organization in Italy, or maybe he's stepped down. He's probably been the president for 25 years. I saw him in the fall, and I think he said he had stepped down. It had been his 25th He's a producer who is, you know, carbon zero and has been for ages and was one of the first. So there's a lot of attention to sustainability in Francia Corta. I could say the same in the Lugana region, also because they're right near the lake. So, you know, it's very important to keep the lake healthy. In Oltre Popovese, for example, the entire region has kind of agreed upon a sustainability platform, and they're pegging themselves towards the UN Sustainable Development Goals, which are 17 goals by the year 2030 that should be attained. So they're looking as a region of sustainability. So that means both environmental sustainability, economic sustainability, and societal sustainability. So that's from what you're doing in your vineyards to what you're doing in your winery to what kind of energy you're using, what are you doing with your waste, to what kind of manure are you using, are you using green manure, are you using tractors to the economic sustainability, meaning can you keep the business going? Can you keep all of your suppliers going? What's happening in your supply chain to societal sustainability, which means are you playing your employees a fair wage? Are you helping improve the local local churches, the local, you know, environment, the local park. So it's kind of a, you know, a 360 look at sustainability rather than just environmental sustainability. And I think generally speaking in Italy, a lot of consortium, I know in Prosecco, they're doing it. People are really focusing on these three pillars of sustainability in America. Sometimes when we talk about sustainability, we leave out the societal part and we put that under social responsibility. And Italy, they keep that under the system ability rubric climate change. What's happening? A lot of people are looking to plant some other varieties that are more climate resistant and what they're really looking to do is go higher. So they want to plant at, you know, elevation and also plant, you know, with a northern facing slope. So elevation and exposition are really key as we go forward. Exposition, meaning the orientation of the grapes to the sun on the side, the orientation of vineyard to the side. If it was cold, maybe you wanted that south slope. You think about having south -facing windows or a south -facing garden plot, more sun, but then as it gets hotter and hotter, maybe you want to keep that cool, so then you move into the other side of the mountain. She can be really interesting because sort of the more favorite grapes being given the best sites, it almost feels like sort of a shake -up. It is. It's a huge shake -up. I keep harping on ultrapogis because I know a lot about it, and it's a new region, and also because they have room. It's a big region, but they have room so producers can plant higher. In Lugana, there's nowhere to go. By the lake, there's no elevation there. What do those wines from Lugana taste like? Oh, Gosh, they taste like spring in a glass. So they're white wines that have a lot of texture because most producers do leaves stirring. So they leave the wine on the dead yeast cells for a while, which adds creamy texture. They have a lot of kind of apple pear, mineral leaf notes. They have great, it has great acidity. And like many Italian white wines, they have this bitter finish. This little tiny almond note on the finish. I'm there five styles of Lugana, so I'm talking about basic Lugana. They also make a late harvest, which is great and has all those caramel -y honey notes to it. There are a few in far between. There's also a sparkling Lugana. I wish they sold that in the United States, but just a few producers make it and it's not that widely. I'm not sure if I've had one of those. Oh, it's great. Yeah, It's great. It's really lovely. Well, Lugana will be back soon, so maybe you'll have the occasion to taste that. There is something for everybody, absolutely everybody. If you like a sweet wine, if you like sparkling wine, if you like a red wine, if you like a white wine, if you like a more maritime wine, if you like a more alpine wine, you can find them all in Lombardia, we'll put you in front of a map and have you show us where some of these little zones are and big zones are and where people can plan their vacation and be like, okay, we're gonna spend some time on the lake and then we're gonna visit some vineyards. What is a good time of year to visit, do you think? - You know, spring, early fall. This summer, it depends what you're doing, you know? - Well, you've got the lake, right? If you wanna do water sports, if you wanna do winter sports, okay, you can go anytime you want, just depends on what you're into. - Yeah, it depends what you're into. 'Cause the lake, there's a lot of sailing on the lake, there's a lot of winter sports on the lake, there are no sharks in the lake, or anything. I don't think there's any Loch Ness person or animal on the lake. I've never heard about any kind of mystery in any of those lakes. So Lake Garda is a very blue green lake, and you can, I can see your little toesies when you go swimming there. Whereas the other two lakes, Majore and Como have more like the gray, greenish gray water, which I am a little afraid of lake swimming, unless I can see my feet. Oh, I love swimming in a lake. You do. I swim in a muddy old reservoir in the middle of Nebraska growing up. And so, you know, for me, that is summer. Did you see Friday the 13th? No. Never? I don't know if I have. I think I skipped that one. Is there a lake scene? Is it going to Everyone likes swimming for me? Should I keep that in mind? Okay, no comment, no comment. Okay, no spoilers. All right, yes. - Okay. - Yeah, okay. No, but if you like a nice clear blue light. - Light garter. - You've got one of those. Susanna, I'm so grateful to have you here helping us just envision all of these things, thinking of my life as a lifelong wine student. I mean, it's just invaluable. It's really hard to get your teeth into a region this diverse just from looking at a map. So thank you. Oh, thank you. And Susanna, besides your Vigneto podcast and your Avinari blog, could you let us know about your website, your Instagram, and some of the services that you do for people? Sure. Winemakers and drinkers. Sure. So my website is vignetocommunications .com, where I generally do lots of events for wine regions or for brands. I work with, you know, press and trade. I would say I'm more trade focused than consumer focused, although I do sometimes do wine dinners or wine start tastings. But generally speaking, I'm talking to the trade. So that's under vignette of communications. Then I have another website, susanagold .com, which is where I have more of my writing and being a brand ambassador and those kind of things or events that I'm hosting. And on Instagram, I'm vigneto coms with an S on Twitter, which I am still on. I'm vigneto com without the S. Yeah. And then I have Avinarade, I have my podcast, and in my spare time, I'm, you know, doing a few other things like raising my kid. And drinking wine. Oh, and I make wine at home. Oh, yes. - Yes, and I make wine at home with my kid, that's what I was thinking about. He stamped, sometimes he will tread my grapes or trod my grapes for me. - What kind of wine are you making? - So this year, so this is my, well, I started in 2006, so theoretically this would be a lot of vintages later, but I don't make wine every year. I didn't make wine during the pandemic. So I make wine in a garage in New Jersey where my family has a house, and I buy grapes from a location in New Jersey, which is like right out of central casting, and the grapes come from Lodi, California, and this year I'm making petit zirá, and I made vermentino and chardonnay. And so I've bottled the vermentino and chardonnay, and the petit zirá is sitting in a tiny little barrel, so it's going to taste like a vino da fallegname, which means like a carpenter's wine in Italian, because the little barrel is going to be so oaky, but hopefully the petit syrup will mellow in time and I still have to bottle that. So yeah, I started, this is maybe my seventh vintage. Oh, I definitely need to talk to you more about that. We've got to have you back on the show. Susanna, thank you so much. Great times in Lombardia, beautiful memories, so much more still to discover. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening and to all of our listeners, wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. Thank you. Follow Motodiberi on YouTube, Instagram and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you would love for the show to continue and grow, support Motodiberi on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodberry .com, where you can also sign up for my newsletter. Music for the podcast was composed by Ercilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com. (singing in foreign language)  

Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: www.oumusic.bandcamp.com

Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister

Audio assistance by Steve Silverstein

Video version by Giulia Àlvarez-Katz