▷S2E4 Through Bacco’s Door: Nobile News from Montepulciano

English

Nov 7

Rose Thomas interviews Andrea Rossi, president of the Consorzio of Vino Nobile di Montepulciano. Silvia Loriga, who works at the Consorzio, translates for Andrea. She also describes the medieval city where she was born in such a captivating fashion, Rose Thomas planned a trip to walk through the Porta di Bacco as soon as possible. Big news from the Vino Nobile DOCG is the new Pieve system, geographical subzones that should be rolled out on the labels of Montepulciano's top wines starting in 2024.

The wines from Montepulciano—a place in Tuscany—are based on the Sangiovese grape. They are not to be confused with wines made from the Montepulciano grape popular with winemakers in the region of Abruzzo.

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Montepulciano is a medieval town. You can go inside, enter to a big gate, big door. The first door is the Porta de Bakko. I don't know if you know who Bakko was. Bakko? Yes, Bakko is my favorite God. Exactly. He's my favorite God too. Welcome to Modo di Bere, the podcast for local drinks and local sayings. I'm your host, Rose Thomas Bannister. For today's episode, I interview representatives of the Consortio of Vino Nobile di Montepulciano, D .O .C .G. I love to talk about this region because the wines are fantastic, but also because I've noticed many Americans being confused between multiple chiano the grape, popular particularly in the region of Abruzzo, and the wines of multiple chiano the town in Tuscany, which are based on San Giovese. I met Andrea in Sylvia from the consortio at a vino nobile tasting in New York City. To be able to interview them was a spontaneous opportunity and we did not have an ideal location. As a result, there is some background noise. Today I'm very excited to interview two representatives from the Consortio of Vino Nobile di Montepulciano. I'm here with Andrea Rossi and Silvia Loriga. We just met here in New York at an event tasting for Vino Nobile di Montepulciano. And I'm very excited to speak with you because I think Vino Nobile di Montepulciano is a wonderful wine and also I think can be a confusing wine for people who of course know that "Montepulciano" is a grape that is grown in many places in Italy, but they may or may not realize that there's also a San Giovese based wine grown in the town of "Montepulciano". It's one of my favorite areas in Tuscany and something I like to talk about. I'm speaking with Andrea. I'll let you get a little taste of his voice, but Andrea will be translated by his colleague Silvia for this interview. Andrea, Sì, mi dico un po' di montepulciano, perché è nobile? È una lunga storia, direi. Si parla di vino montepulciano fin dal 1300. Il vino che veniva consumato dai papi, dai cardinali, perfino George Washington aveva vino nobile nella sua cantina. È una storia very long history because we always speak about Nobile and about Vino Nobile in Montepulciano. The first document we found it was dated 1350 and then we have another document of 7050 where we speak about Vino Nobile in Montepulciano. Also the US President Thomas Jefferson spoke in his book about the wines from Montepulciano and so it's a really long history, it's a really long relationship between Montepulciano and his wine. Fantastic. Andrea, what is different about the San Giovese from this region in Montepulciano as opposed to from other areas of Tuscany? The San Giovese is the wine of Tuscany, evidently. Quindi Montepulciano e in Tuscany, abbiamo sempre prodotto San Giovese al principio, quindi è l 'unico più famoso grato in Tuscany e per sicuro ci sono molte differenze tra le differenze, l 'area, per esempio l 'area di Anticlassico e l 'area di Brunello di Montalcino are really different. They always use San Giovese for their wines, but they are different. But you can find those differences not only in such a big area, but you can find very interesting differences also in a quite little area as Montepulciano. In fact, if you consider The farthest area of Monte Pulciano, farthest from the city center called Valiano, is one of the 12 Piede. The ones you have there are completely different than the ones you have in the area, maybe close to the city center. So the difference between San Giovese is possible, they are possible to tasted to feel not only in all the Tuscany, but also if you can pay attention in a very small area. So I love this answer because the story in Italy is that there's always this incredible diversity. Really, you can just get more and more and more and more particular. So I'm not surprised at all that this is the answer. I want to talk to you more about the geological differences for sure in the soil and the climate about multiple Tiano but first I want to ask the flavor in the wine let's be more general than is really correct for a moment and say okay you have some San Giovese in a blind tasting how do you choose the vino nobile are there flavors and aromas structure that are more associated with the San Giovese as certain characters San Giovese si distingue, per esempio, da uno degli elementi anche la potenza dei vini che vengono fuori a secondo delle zone. Il San Giovese è qualcosa di molto tipico in Tuscany e è possibile trovare un caratteristico molto interessante, ma usually it's not the best thing just to say the San Jovese is red cherry, plum and that's it because you know as we told before in Monte Pulsano we have several areas it's it's not as smart just to say one word for San Jovese because we have some clay soil and the clay soil you can find some very characteristic taste for San Jovese. So maybe it's a little bit mineral and the color is also different. In some other areas we have sandy soil. So we have another type of wine. So it's not easy to understand or maybe to recognize this different, but San Jovese is a very territorial grape. So it's not easy to grow San Giovese everywhere. It's not like some other grape like Cabernet or Merlot, so you can plant Cabernet or Merlot everywhere. It's not the same for San Giovese. San Giovese is very strictly related with the center of Italy. It has in particularity of the San Trovese. - Great, so let's talk about some of those subsones because I think that Toscana, Tuscany, is so interesting as a microcosm of wine laws, not just Italian wine laws, but wine laws in general. It's one of the oldest, one of the places with the first named legally protected wine laws in the world. And so I love this history, but also in the current moment, there are all these new subsons. And I learned recently about the new Piave system, about the newly delineated subsons of the Vinonobili area. So I'm really excited to spend some time educating myself and all of our listeners about this new system. una lezione importante direi qualcosa di meno intanto si vi sarà più brava di me definirne la domanda precedente potrebbe so we we start to think about new wine because we really believe in the potentiality of our Pinot Nobile di Montecolciano and for us speak about difference It's not something negative, but it's something really positive. So we start to make a lot of study to find the area where we can have interesting difference. So in Montepulciano, we have three kinds of Vinno nobile di Montepulciano, the Vinno nobile annata, so it's the regular one. Then we have the Vinno nobile Reserva, so that means one year more of aging and now we have the third Born the third boy the Vino noblia di Montepulciano, Piave. Piave is the UGA in Italy We call UGA UGA, but as you ask in the first questions Montepulciano is elegance is finest, so we don't want to use UGA UGA is something not really elegant for us. That term is that's for Qianti, right? You've got your own system. But the UGA I understand is also new and a new system of subzones for Qianti Classico. In the past Qianti Qianti the larger area had its own separate subzones and it's actually very new this But that's their sub -zones and you have your own area. Yeah. Now, what does it mean, "Pieve"? "Pieve" is a church with Fonte Battesimale, so it's a place where you can have a sacrament. And we found in Montepulciano we have twelve "Pieve" at least. I think the English word "perish"? In the states we have mostly counties but I believe the state of Louisiana has I think parishes. So if you think of it as an area. Exactly and this is the translation but okay for the difference but we want also to find a name we can use everywhere. Can you put the new PAVA system on the location on any E' un percorso assolutamente qualificante per il Vino nobile? Diciamo che noi stiamo costruendo la nostra piramide. E' solo per il Vino nobile, ma ti chiedo perché. Ti devi considerare che il Vino, in Montepulciano adesso, ha un pyramid, and where we have at the bottom, we have the Vino Noble di Montepulciano annata. Then we have the Reserva, and in the highest point of the pyramid we have the Piede, it's the highest point, but it's also the less quantity of wine. And to produce Piede There are a lot of strictly rules more than the Vino nobile. The Vino nobile already has a lot of rules, but for the Piave we want to have more, more strictly. Could you explain some of the stricter rules for the Piave level? Sì, allora intanto nasce con una valorizzazione del San Giovese, che è il nostro vitigno. Absolutely, yes. So the Piave has a lot, really a lot of new rules. First of all the grapes. In nobile base, in nobile annata, we have minimum 70 % San Giovese but in the piebe we have minimum 85 % San Giovese and the other grapes allowed as only local or native grape, canaiollo, colorino, mambo. Moreover, colorino only not more than 5 % And also another important difference is the aging. The aging for the pieve is 36 months and at least 12 months in a bottle. For the reserva was at least six months. Another important rule is the quantity of grape we can produce directly in the vineyard is less than the vino nobile and nata. Another very important rule is in some chemical characteristics and the most curious for me introduction we use is to have two different commissions. We always have a committee for the vino nobile di Montepulciano. they taste the wine and decide if that one can be Villanoble di Montepucceano. But for the Piede, before to go to the final committee, we have another very, how do you say, very cattiva, very difficult, strict, exactly internal committee who taste the Piede. They are the first to decide if that wines can become piave. So the piave has to pass two different committees, not only ones, like in the Vino Nobile and Nata, or in the Reserva. This sounds like it's going to be a wine of amazing quality. Yeah, absolutely. My next question is, was it a contentious process to decide together as a region the borders of the new piave? Sì, è stato forse la cosa più difficile da affrontare, o perlomeno, il progetto più o meno l 'avevamo. So, absolutely yes, it was very difficult, it was difficult since the beginning, but it was also a very long moment for us, not in the worst meaning of the the world, but was long. But this very interesting project needs time to arrive at the end. And the first idea was to come together in this direction. So, yes, it was difficult because we have, in our Concerto 81ery inside the Concerto, so it's not easy to think all in the same way. So, yes, it was difficult to find the final way to arrive here. But I think in a very big project, like the Piave project, we need to, not to be in rush, we need to find our time and we need to have time to speak with a colleague, with a producer. So, yes, it was a long and difficult project. We start to find a study about the geological previous study. We find out the Catastro Leopoldino, so it's the Leopoldian study about our terror. and we also studied the land, the soil, and then we decided, so the consortium and the technical decided the different, the border of the different area. At the end of this first step, we made the consortium a big assembly with all the Wanderers associated, and at the end, all the people decide, "Yes, go ahead with the Piave project." "Yes, we want to do the third Vino no Bia di Montecolciano, and Piave is the right street." So it was something really difficult, also for the president, as he told, but for sure it was something really satisfying. Satisfying. Satisfying, absolutely. Satisfying in the end. Yeah, Yeah, it sounds like it. In the history of making these distinctions between different zones, it can be very political, especially if a certain area gets more press and then you're not in the hottest zone. And so I know some regions can be resistant to making these distinctions because it can be a really political process so I congratulate you on coming to completion with these borders. You have this animal as your symbol and I believe it's a griffon and I don't know how to say this in Italian but why is a griffon the symbol of vino nobile? So our Gryphon is very familiar for us, we don't know exactly when the idea of the Gryphon arrives in Montepulciano or inside the Consorzio, but the Vino Nobile di Montepulciano has as a symbol the Gryphon. It's not only the symbol of Vino Nobile because the Gryphon is the symbol of Montepulciano, of the city of Montepulciano. So the griffon used in the city hall is a little bit different, not too much different, just a little bit, but we don't know exactly when the consortium start to use this symbol, but for sure we know the reason why. So the reason is also in our il nome "Vinonobile di Montepulciano". We really believe the Vinonobile doesn't exist without Montepulciano and Montepulciano maybe exists without Vinonobile but for sure is a different Montepulciano. So the griffon is our symbol because we are really related to our territory. I want to say thank you so much to the new and returning listeners of the MotoDBerry podcast. I really enjoy learning local drinks and sayings and sharing what I learned with you. If you have a moment to tell a friend or colleague about the podcast, I'd really appreciate it. It's an easy way to support the work that I do. You can share the MotoDBerry Instagram page where I share videos of local drinks and local sayings from Italy and from all around the world. You can share this podcast with them. And you can also write a review and give the show five stars on Apple podcasts. It really helps more people discover the show. Thank you so much for your support. So let's talk a moment about this, I'm sure, difficult confusion in the market with "Multipulciano, the town" and "Multipulciano, the grape". How have you tried to fix this misunderstanding? For us it is clear that Montepulciano is a city, the noble wine of Montepulciano is evident that the wine of this city. much for your question is a very important information for us, is a very important argument for us. We start to think about, not find the difference, but find a different way to communicate the two different wines. As you know, wines from Montepulciano, Vino Nobile, the Montepulciano is easy to understand for people born in Italy but not for the people born all around the world. Also there is the funny history behind the name Montepulciano for my colleague from Abruzzo because I don't know remember exactly when in which time but family she has a lot of vineyards in Tuscany. But they also have, how can I say, a little house in Sormona, in Abruzzo, and they decide to move some plant of vines there. And the people start to speak about the grape from Montepulciano, make the wines as they do in Montepulciano, used the grape from Montepulciano, but was a long phrase to say, very long. So in the years, it became the grape Montepulciano, just it. And the end was just Montepulciano. And here, the born has the similar name, so not similar, but a well -named, but for completely different wines. So can I ask you, did they bring the multiple channel grape from Tuscany to Abruzzo? Not they bring, the family Medici bring, the family Medici was from Tuscany, was from our area and they bring their own grape in Abruzzo. So they are one of the richest family at that time in the world. With all that history, how are you coming to communicate this difference to the market now? So the beginning was really difficult, but thanks to the president, thanks to the board of direction, two years ago we changed. We had the first important change of our appellation. We put the word "toscana" on the label and now is something that all the producer has to do, to put the word "toscana" in the label for "nobile" and for "Rosso di Montepulciano". So now finally we have on the label the difference of the region for the other colleague is Montepulciano da Brutzo, but for us is Vino Nobile nobile di Montepulciano, Toscana is long, but is what we are. That's great. So, since Montepulciano, the grape, is grown more in our bruzzo. If you put Toscana on every bottle, at least it can make people pause a little bit and to consider. Okay, yes. Do you put San Giovese on the label? No, absolutely not San Giovese for a per molte razioni, ma magari il Presidente è migliore se... Perché non mettere San Giovese nell 'attichetto? Fatto tutti questi passaggi, la vera politica degli ultimi? No, non mettiamo San Giovese sul labore, ma mettiamo un scan sul labore. Anche perché, come abbiamo detto prima, sorry, San say, or Montecrucciano, they are grape, and it's possible to produce that kind of grape everywhere, in every part of the world, more or less. Toscana is a really strong brand right now, maybe stronger than Italy brand. So it's the reason why we want to be in our region. It's not only for our grapes, but we want to be che ci sono e che ci sono. Il nostro vino nasce principalmente come blend, nella storia il vino nobile è un blend, quindi non potremmo mettere. Il most importante, il vino nobile di Monte Pulciano, born and historical, is a blend. So, we cannot put San Giovese in our label because it's not only San Giovese, it's a blend between different varieties. For sure, mostly it's San Jovesi, but it's not only San Jovesi. I love this story because San Jovesi is this slow, ripening, thin -skinned grape and doesn't have the stable color as some of the other grapes. So, it's true. It has always needed those local blending partners. And a related question is, with the big movement towards birds and then away from the French blending grapes in Tuscany. What is the story right now in Multipluciano? I know you mentioned that at the Piave level you are now only allowing the local native grapes. Is that something you're trying to encourage and do you see more use of the indigenous grapes in general in Multipluciano as well as as is happening around the rest of Tuscany? Allora, intanto il vino nobile annata rimarrà con il disciplinare che abbiamo oggi. Per un 'antica volta usiamo varietà internazionali in il nostro grimo, in il nostro wine, sorry. Sì, è qualcosa che per noi è normale, ma con i piedi vogliamo essere We want to be more related with our area. And we don't know if it's the first time it's a blend. It's always be something produced with San Giovese and with other grape. We don't want to put a stop in the Cabernet or in Merlot. It's something that we use, we have. It's not shameless for us, absolutely. But for the Piede, we want to be more focused on the native, on the indigenous grape. There's such a long history of cross -pollination, you could say, of the French and Italian influence. People, I mean, going back really hundreds of years, the thing that did happen was going a little bit out of balance with planting during the Super Tuscan movement, this explosion of interest in these kind of Bordeaux style blends and then of course what happened was some of the indigenous grapes they were pulled up to plant the burlot. I did not repeat the question in English at the time but here I asked Andrea where the regulations limit the colorino grape to only five percent of the blend for the new PAV level. che è l 'ovaggio del colorino. decide to put maximum five percent of colorino is the reason is to preserve the pieve from Merlot. We don't say we don't like Merlot but we don't want Merlot in our pieve. So to put maximum five percent colorino means to put in a safe area all the all the wines or the pieve wines. That's so interesting And colorino is very interesting too, because it's not just one grape, it's a group of grapes. We know we have a lot of different kind of colorino. What we happen in Montepulciano, but not all in Montepulciano, so in the limited area around us, when The growers needed to replant just one plant, not an entire vineyard, but just something small. They used Merlot. Merlot because it was easy to find, easy to plant, it was very easy to grow up. So it's the reason why they decided to put somewhere a little plant of Merlot, one here, one there, one here again. So, at the end, we find we have some Merlot in our land. It's something that we don't, how can we say, we don't, non -disconosciamo, lol, we know is something that happened, is something that we have, is something that now is in our culture of Vino La Pria di Montipulciano, but with the Piede, we want to came back to the origin, came back to what we have at the beginning when we start to produce wine in Montepulcana, when we start to produce the vino, the Montepulcana, the vino nobile di Montepulcana. Bravo! So some of the notes that I found today in the tasting in several of the wines were notes of mushrooms, sweet herbs, sage, mint, I couldn't non potevo decidere a qualsiasi noto di Suit Erbs Violet e anche io penso di questi ciasi con un layer di asci intorno al Morbier, anche se fanno uno in California che è chiamato Tom Boat Fog, non so se il wine è davvero smelto come questi ciasi o solo mi vogliono si è corretta anche perché alcune note sono uscite negli ultimi due anni, probabilmente Aroma, some note that you can find in the Vinno nobile, but most curious is there are some notes that we start to have since not a long time. We start to find out these kind of smells and aroma maybe in the vintage 2019 and 2020. We never had to forget the climate We also, in Montepulcano, we have climate change. We can feel the change all around the world and, for sure, also in Montepulcano. We have some difference. Our fortune is, Montepulcano is high, it's hills with the city center at the top, but we, it's a high hills. So, we have some central area, Arjano. because not about Villanoblia di Montipulcano in this period maybe it's not so easy, but for sure what you taste in the wines is something that is common to find in the Villanoblia di Montipulcano right now. Can we talk a little bit about the town of Montipulcano? Sure. I have never been. I would really like to visit. What is the actual city like? So have you ever seen the Twilight Oh, I admit no. The Twilight movie was filmed in Montepulciano. It was a little bit changed for a scenographic thing, but Montepulciano is a beautiful city. It's my place where I was born. It's a beautiful place. It's not for all the people because it's really high. It's really tough to start from the beginning and arrive at the really top of the city. It's not like New York City, it's all flat, you have to walk, walk, walk, come on, okay, but it's flat, no, absolutely not like this in Montepulciano. It's a medieval town. You can go inside, enter to a big gate, big door. The first door is Porta di Bacco, I don't know if you know who Bakko was. - See, Bakko? - Bakko? - Yes, my favorite color. - Exactly, he's my favorite god too. So, you enter in the city center in the Porta de Bakko, he's Porta means door or gate, and you start to have a very beautiful walk up to the hills and you have Asian palace and you have asian church and you have very interesting shops and you have maybe a bar and you have a wine shop and then again historical palace and then you have to take a bottle of wine or water with you maybe just to arrive at the end and then maybe you walk in the street you turn left and wow there is a beautiful view on the Val d 'Orcia area and then you continue to move very slowly because it's not easy so very slowly and wow another beautiful view on the Val d 'Orcia it's not a big city like New York like Rome but at the end of the work we arrived in the main square Piazza Grande and you have four different uh palace. You have the cathedral, you have the city hall, you have Palazzo del Capitano and you have nobile palace. So what does it mean? The main square was the place where all the fourth power of the city can link. The cathedral was the pope or the church power. The city hall was the people power. The Palazzo del Capitano was the Capitan palace, so was the military power and then we have Palazzo Tarugio, Palazzo Contucci, so they are noble family. Montipulciano was also the power of noble family. Not too far from the main square you also find the fortress. The fortress is the really highest point of Montepulciano, where inside there are the offices of Concortes del Vino nobile. Our wine shop is something unique because you can arrive in the wine shop after the walk up to the hills, taste all the wines of Montepulciano, have a wonderful view on the Val d 'Orcia, but I don't want to show you the surprise because there is a very curious floor because when we start to restore the fortress we found asian ruins under the floor so you can see the asian ruins in our Enoliteja and you can see Etruscan i suoi ruinti, il Vino nobile, hanno un 'occhio sulla Val d 'Orcia e sentono qualcosa che si può raccontare. - Che stiamo facendo qui? - Siamo andando! - E come si dice "andiamo" in moltepulciano? - Andiamo! - Andiamo? Our area of Tuscany where Montipulcano is is the place where the Italian language So your local language became Italian Italian Italian. Yeah, we don't have any Like a dialect. Yeah, we don't have your dialect one. It is that they have just one word in my mind It's a local way to call boy or girl in Italian is a ragazzo or ragazza in our area we used to say "chitto" or "chitta" is something not really elegant but it's something we really use a lot. Just one word I think it doesn't be important. Do you use this just for children or do you also use it as an informal greeting for people of the age? Hey girl, hey guy, let's go. So, I know in a lot of places there's a different way to say, "Hey, hey you, let's go, let's go get a drink." We always say, "Ciao, ciao, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo, andiamo." Okay, let's go, andiamo, andiamo. Okay. All right. So, you're a dialect one, and so it's not a dialect anymore. Exactly. Exactly. So, I don't want to forget to talk a little bit about the other wine besides the vino nobile. We have also a different TOC, correct, rosso di multipleciano based on San Giovese. Absolutely, yes. Our love, the rosso di multipleciano is a DOC based on San Giovese. It's easy. It's easy, our rosso di multipleciano. It's fresh, it's something you can have every single day is something that we used to have every single day in our house, it's something fresh, it's something younger, it's something that it's very popular and also we are very proud of the street that Rosso di Montipulciano did in the past few years because it's But the entry -level wine, it's not more the entry -level wine but it's something very interesting. And also the relationship between the price and the quality is perfect right now. And the last goal we have is we have our Rosso di Montepulciano completely sold. So che è molto interessante e molto importante, perché questo significa che Rosso di Montepulciano trova l 'area di Motepulciano. È l 'area di Motepulciano. Sì, è assoluto. Dovete avere un po' di valore per il Motepulciano quando sceglie il vino nobile di Motepulciano? E' evidente, non siamo in questo momento rappresentando una denominazione che è il vino nobile di Motepulciano, ma lo dico in maniera molto oggettiva e non soggettiva. Now, we represent Vino Noble di Montipulcano for sure, so what the president says is he speaks absolutely with information on what we have on the market and we know the price, more or less we know the influence of the other appellation in Tuscany, but the Vino Noble di Montipulcano for sure, Vino Nobile di Montipulcano right now has the really, how do you say, value for money is absolutely balance is perfect and is something that it's not easy to find in the other appellation right now. So if you are making that choice, you might go for Vino Nobile and really get a lot of wine for your money. Yeah. Yeah. I think they're great. I think they're really elegant. I was so impressed with everything that I tasted today and also thank you so much for being so friendly and in talking with me at the last minute. I was really excited to meet you both Sylvia, Andrea. Is there a place on the on the web where people can go to learn more about your region? Sure is our website www .consortiovino nobile .it Follow Motodiberi on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you would love for the show to continue and grow, support Motodiberi on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at motodiberi .com, where you can also sign up for my newsletter. Music for the podcast was composed by Ursilia Prosperi and performed by the band O. You can purchase their recordings at oumusic .bandcamp .com.