▷S1E10 The Boot in 20: Campania (with Susannah Gold)

Why does Rose Thomas joke that Italy is "sommelier kryptonite"? Is there hope for wine students staring down this complex country? Of course there is! Enter the new Modo di Bere sub-series The Boot in 20. For each of Italy's 20 wine regions, Rose Thomas asks an expert to bring the map to life. Her guests identify major grapes, wines, soils and microclimates. They tell us stories about each region's history, consider the future in terms of climate change, and share advice about planning a visit!

Campania, home to some of Italy's most age-worthy wines, is an excellent place to start the Italian wine journey. Wine Scholar Susannah Gold illuminates the geological and social factors behind Campania's deep commitment to its local grape varieties. Susannah introduces her old friends Aglianico, Fiano, Greco, and Falanghina, along with several rare grape varieties and a couple of vine-training systems that can only be described as living history.

Susannah and Rose Thomas share some useful Italian wine law definitions and discuss the volcanic factor in a region where a glass of wine still tells the story of that day in Pompeii in the year 79. The episode concludes with travel advice, from which islands to sail around to which city welcomes the morbid to epic catacombs.

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Check out Susannah's Vigneto Podcast, where she reviews wine books and talks sustainability.
She also has a wonderful wine blog called Avvinare.
Susannah is on Instagram @vignetocomms.
Susannah offers many different services to wine producers and consumers through her website www.susannahgold.com.

• Expand for auto-generated transcript. (Please excuse errors.)

  Rovicello. And I think he's maybe the only producer of it. I think he has maybe one hectare, maybe two, maybe there are two people in all of the world that are growing that great variety. So no matter how many we know, we're always going to learn something new. That's what I love. Useful Italian vocabulary. Mison, Tito, I've never heard of that. Oh, right. Yes, that's true. Mison. Yes. And I like to say that Italy is kind of Samuelier kryptonite. And today, I have the pleasure of interviewing Susanna Gold. She is going to teach us about Campania for the new Modo di Bere series, The Boot in 20. In this series, I'll bring on an expert for each of Italy's 20 wine regions for an educational overview. Regional history, challenges and opportunities for the present and the future, soil, climate, grapes, and wines, relevant wine laws, and tips for how to visit. Whether you're just getting started with Italian wine or you've been a fan for years, one thing I've learned is you can always go deeper. With Italy, there's always, always more to learn, which is perfect for the show, since the Modo di Bere motto is to try new things, enjoy yourself, and never stop learning. - Real quick, before we start the interview, if you're a fan of the Modo di Bere podcast, please take a Amendment now, go to Apple Podcasts and leave the show a five star rating and write a review. It really helps with visibility for the show and I really appreciate it. We'll be here when you get back. Before we introduce Campania, I would like to introduce Susanna Gold. Susanna is an American writer, educator and brand ambassador with a beautiful focus on Italian wine. She is one of the only non -Italians in AIS, the Association of Italian sommeliers. Susanna holds a diploma in wine and spirits from the Wine and Spirits Educational Trust. She's an Italian wine ambassador and she holds a multiplicity of certifications from the Society of Wine Educators and the Wine Scholars Guild. The first thing I learned about Susanna is that her qualifications barely fit on the back of her business card. The second thing I learned is that she is a generous, kind and effective educator. I've really enjoyed learning about wine and Susanna on various occasions, and I'm thrilled to bring her on the show. Susanna, welcome. - Thank you so much, Rose, you're making me blush. Anyway, yeah, that business card is a little ridiculous, but I saw someone else had a business card like that, and I was like, oh, I wanna put all my certifications on it. - I loved it. I would sign me up to be friends with this woman right now, please. - Oh, that's fun. Thank you. Thank you so much. - Yes, don't change your business card. - You know, I'm old school, so I still actually have a business card, not just to QR code that somebody can tag and copy. Anyway, I'm really excited to be here. Your project is so fun. I love 20 on the boot. So Italy is my sweet spot, the love of my life other than my child. And I'm always happy to talk about it. And I'm really happy to talk about Campania, an amazing region, really beautiful. I love it too. Before we dive into the interview, I want to ask our listeners, how are you liking the show? I would love to hear from you. Is there a local drink or a local saying from your town that you wish I would cover? Tell me about it. You can send me a message through my website at motodiberry .com, where you can also sign up for the newsletter, or you can send me a DM at motodiberry on Instagram. I can't wait to hear from you. Susanna, Campania. Let's start with the basics. Where is Campania located in Italy and what is Campania famous for besides its points? So okay, where is Campania located? Let's start with that because I'm a real map geek. I love maps and sort of orienting yourself. And with Italy, even though everyone is familiar with the idea that Italy is in the shape of a boot, it's not necessarily so clear where the reasons are. So Campania is in southern Italy. You can separate Italy into northern, central, and southern Italy and Campania is in southern Italy. It borders with Lazio, which is the region where the capital Rome is located. So that's probably familiar to a lot of people. Campania has a lot of mountains that people may not be as familiar with, and it's on the sea. It's on the Mediterranean. So I think if you think about Campania, it's on the Mediterranean in southern Italy, close to Lazio and that is a good way to kind of orient yourself. So as an Italian wine nerd myself, I sometimes find myself thinking only about wine regions and realize that, you know, people who might not have that same obsession think of completely different things. So what is Campania famous for? Places that people go on vacation that aren't necessarily wine regions, just for some context. Okay, for some context. So the first thing you probably think of when you think of Campania, well, two things. One is Pompeii. So almost everybody has heard about Pompeii, which is the town in Campania that was covered by volcanic ash when Vesuvius, the volcano, exploded in 79 AD. It's a really interesting, amazing place to visit if you're interested in art. The frescoes on the walls, frescoes or paintings on the walls are amazing in Pampé, and even though they were covered with lava, they are actually maintained. So it's just a beautiful place to visit. They have amphora and all kinds of glass and things that were found there. So Pampé is perfect for historical buffs or art historians. And then in terms of holidays. Think of the islands of Capri, Porosida, Ischia. Those are three beautiful islands that are at the Archipelago off the coast. They're actually in the Gulf of Naples. So if you're a sailor, those are amazing places to sail. I love sailing, so I've sailed around those amazing islands. I think the Blue Lagoon or the Blue Grotto, I think it's called in Capri. So that's a really, really beautiful place. Naples. If you love pizza, there's no greater place for pizza than Naples. Pizza actually, I believe, came from Naples. So Neapolitan pizza is the most famous pizza in the world. So those are kind of if you're a food person, if you're a historian, if an art historian, a sailor. Also, Campania has the largest kind of private villa estate in Italy. It's called La Regia di Cazerta. Cazerta is a town in Campania, and it's kind of the Italian version of Versailles. I think they have either, I think they have 600 rooms and a gorgeous garden, so that's a really fun place to visit as well. So if you had a friend who had never tasted wine from Campania before, without thinking too hard, what would you choose for them to try? Well, one thing when you think about the wines from Campania is most of them are indigenous varieties. And what does that mean? They are native grapes that grow only in Italy. So there are three whites, Falinguina, Fiano, and Greco. And then the Italian red grape from Campania, which they're very famous for is called Alianico, which makes a beautiful red wine. - I love indigenous grapes as listeners of this podcast are aware. And it's really fun to learn about a region where they really still have continued to specialize in those without losing sight of the riches of the local products, which is really cool. So within Italy, relative to the other wine regions, how would you place Campania in terms of number of vineyards, the quantity and quality of the wines and the wines influence and reputation, like historic versus today? Okay, so historically, the wines from Campania were the most famous wines in Italy because the wines from Campania has been making wines for 2 ,000 years and during the Roman era, the Romans drank wine not from Lazio, but from Campania. So the wines that the Romans were drinking were wines from Campania. So they are 2 ,000 years of history. So that's the historical answer. Today, many people who have tasted Italian wines, the first wines that they taste were wines from a place called Vesuvius, which is the volcano. And those were the wines that were covered in lava. Maybe you saw those bottles in the past. Maybe you're too young. But they had these bottles that were covered in kind of sparkly and interesting, and it was called Vesuvius Bianco and Rosso white and red. And those were a lot of wines they would see in wine in restaurants here in New York City because a lot of people who emigrated from Italy emigrated to America from Campania. It's a region where a lot of people emigrated in the 1960s and way earlier actually. I do find that when I meet people in New York, or from Italian families, they are often from Naples. They're often from Naples. They're from a province called Benevento, a lot of people who are in the New York region. I don't think it's the same in other areas, but a lot of people from that region immigrated here or from Sicily, here meaning New York City. So what about a few statistics or amount of wine in relation to all the 20 regions. I'm looking around for my actual documents that will tell me the exact percentage which I have here, but I think they might be the eighth largest wine region in terms of exporting wines, but I'm not sure of that number. The first that four largest regions are, you know, Puglia, Sicily, I believe, Emilia Romagna, and the Veneto. So it's not in the top four, but it is definitely in the top 10 for a number of reasons because they make all of these really famous grape varieties, the white grape varieties that are ones that can age, which maybe we'll go into later. And Taorazi and made from Arlianico is also very famous and has been historically. So they have been exported for many, many years because they are producers in Campania who've been exporting to the United States for a long, long time, many decades. - I really love wine for teaching me so much about history and Campania strikes me as so rich in history. Besides Pompeii, and you told us already about wine going back to Roman times, are there some other historic stories about wine making in Campania that spring to mind? - Sure, well, I mean, one of the interesting things when you look at wine regions in Italy are the soils. So there are two kind of really interesting facts about soils in Campania. So one is that there are parts of Campania that have grape varieties and grape vines that are growing on their own rootstocks. What does that mean? That means that the pest called phylloxera, which destroyed all of the vineyards in France in the late 1800s and also destroyed some vineyards in regions in Italy, did not reach some parts of Campania. So you can find grape varieties in Campania that are over 100 years old on their own rootstocks, which is really exciting. That's not something you see in every region. So I think that's one fact that's very interesting in terms of viticulture in Campania. Another-- - Oh, I just wanted to say that Phylloxer is one of the most interesting stories and wine history for me. And what I understand about this tiny little bug that no one could see, no one knew what was going on for the longest time. It just has trouble moving through certain soils. The solution was actually digging up every vine, every European vine, and grafting every vine onto an American vine species rootstock, which is not harmed by the phylloxera, which attacks just the roots of the vine. But not every indigenous grape took to grafting. And so I think, I didn't occur to me before, but I think that may be part of the story for the continuous commitment to indigenous grapes in this region because they were able to continue on their own rootstocks, do you suppose? - It's possible. I do know, I'm thinking the grape, actually I'm thinking this one winery and this one grapevine, this photo that I saw, this amazing Alianico variety that was growing on its own rootstocks. I know that Alianico in other parts has been grafted onto an American rootstock in other areas, but what you were saying earlier about the soils, so when there's a lot of sand in the soils, phylloxera does not attack the vine. So in some of these soils, there was a lot of vines. Another really interesting story, which I just remember it and I learned about really recently, is these grape varieties that grew on trees. So there's two areas in Campania that have this. So one is an area called Anversa, and the grape variety that grows there is called Asprinio. Asprinio makes amazing, fun, like pet net and sparklers that are really fun wines and their grape varieties are grown onto trees. And so they're called vite maritate, which means like they're married, that means they're married and that means they're married to the grape to a tree. And so they grow up the tree vine to like 20 feet in the air. And that's really an exciting part of kind of viticultural history and campania. Another one is this group group of grapevines which I discovered recently or I didn't discover them but I learned about them recently that grow in the area of Taurasi. Taurasi is in an area called Irpina. Irpina is part of Campania that's very, very interesting because it's actually hilly and green and you can ski in parts of Irpina. Many people were not aware that there were parts of Campania that were in the mountains and that it gets cold. But in Erpina, it does get cold and you can ski. And in Taurasi, which is in Erpina, this province, this region, actually the province is Avelino, they grow on these high kind of pergolas and they're called the patriarchs. They're called Ipatriarchi and they're very high up and they've been like that for over a hundred years. And so many of these producers have these amazing grapevines that grow up to maybe 15 meters. And they grow up to that level so that there were kind of three levels of things. So they had grapevines that grow under the grapevines, they grew fruit trees, and under that they had animals. So it was kind of a system of farming within the last 100 years. and some of them have been taken away or grubbed up, but many people still have these amazing, you know, really high -up grapevines called the patriarchs. That is such an amazing piece of living history, and I just learned about that from you when we met recently at the Eropenia event that you organized. I did an interview with two amazing women that I met at Susanna's Eropenia event that she organized with the producers from Eropenia, Teresa Sabrina and Ilaria Petito and you can go back to listen to their interview which was one of the first episodes of Moto T Berry so check that out find out more about your Pina. I learned about those patriarchs from you but I had heard about the Aspreño and had tasted those wines before and yeah they have these really tall skinny ladders that are a little dangerous. They have to harvest the grapes and then pass the grapes down in these kind of baskets. It's so fascinating and you know, all over Italy back in the day when people really did make their economy through farming, I am one of my favorite terms is the term for this mixed agricultural non -monoculture planting of these mixed farms, which is actually promiscuous agriculture promiscuous. So that's a fun vocabulary word from farm history in Italy. Agreed. Agreed. I love that you're a map nerd. That's just what I need for the Boot in 20 series. Could you take our listeners through an overview of the DOC's and DOCG's from Campania, but first just very briefly, could you explain those two terms? Sure. Okay, so there are two important terms that people use when they talk about quality wines. The first is C, which stands for denominazione d 'origine controllata, so DOC, and the second one is DOCG, which is denominazione d 'origine controllata e garantita, and that means that it has a further level of quality status guaranteed, that's what the G stands for. So these two terms are given to wine regions that have been growing grapes in a certain way of a certain kind for a long period of time. So before you can become a DOCG, you have to have been a DOC for at least 10 years. And this is true everywhere in Italy. So you probably know about famous denominations like Barolo or Brunello, but before they got DOCG status. They also were DOC's. So going back to Campania, within Campania there are four very famous DOCG wines. Two are white wines. So one is Greco di Tufo. Tufo is an area and Greco is a particular wine that comes from this area of Tufo and that's a DOCG wine. Then we have Fiano de Bellino, another DOCG wines. Both of these wines come from the area of Irpina that Rose and I keep talking about. Then we have Taurasi, which is also a DOCG. Taurasi is made from Alianico. There is another area in the saño, which is a different part of campania that's called alianico del tamburno, and that's also a DOCG. So there are four DOCG areas that wines are under this denomination, and it means that they are grown in a certain way, they have kind of strict rules in terms of their yields, their harvesting, other specifications and you can find the fact that they are a DOC wine on their labels and on the top of the bottle they usually have a brown label with a code that comes from the National Registry so you can actually physically look at a label and understand if it's a DOC G wine or a DOC wine because it's always listed on the label and you can download the legislative rules generally from what are known as consortium. So consortium is a group of producers that get together and maintain the specifications and the rules of a region. So there are these four DOCG wines and there are many DOC wines. So Falinguina, which is a really great, fun, white grape variety that comes from Campania that you can find in a still or sparkling version. There are great ones that are here, available in the United States. It's, I think, an easy drinking wine, compared to maybe fian or greco for even people who are not so sure about acidity. I find, really, take to phylogena immediately. Phylogena is not yet a DOCG wine. It's a DOC. So that's an example of a wine that's a DOC. So In terms of the legislation, DOCs and DOCGs are a nomenclature that are used in Italy. It's the same as the system in France that was called the AOCs, or in Spain, they have DOs. And all of these DOCGs or DOCs in Italy have their counterpart in European regulations, which would be under the PDO. But in Italy, you're allowed to keep using DOC and DOCGs. And there are not that many DOCGs, I believe, as of today, there are 74 or 75. - You know, I recently looked at these statistics. I think it's up to 78 now. - Wow, okay, that's interesting. - It's just so much changing all the time. And then this has to do with these consortia, agitating to keep these things really up to date. The idea of regulations can sound kind of boring, but it's not boring at all at Italy. And what I see when I think about these things, especially with some of these consortia, having met some of these people, they're just working so hard to just make the best wine and to really constantly, and it's not easy, the bureaucracy is really slow moving, but they really work to update the stuff just to make sure that the wines from this region are both the best quality of possible and recognized in the best way. Agreed. Also, and I mean in memory that it's Earth Week this week, it's almost April 22nd in the year that we're recording this. These consortium also tend to be the kind of organization that can push sustainability and social responsibility. So these consortium are great because they can impact a lot of producers in terms of the rules that they put into play. If you want one of these labels on your wines, you have to follow certain specifications. So it's also good for Planet Earth to have these consortium watching out for the vineyards and their producers. And, you know, there's a lot of good also for us consumers so that we are drinking wines that are what they say they are. - Yes. - Right? You know, we don't wanna drink something that's not actually from where it's listed on the label or something that is similar to but not what we're really looking for. So, you know, it's important. These consortium are very important. - Yes, and before the DOC, DOC juice system, which now can be called the DOP system under a new term that, again, is kind of useful to talk about the wines that are elevated over the IGT or vino di tavolo, which are kind of the lower levels of labeling. You can say 43 % of Italian wine is DOP. So it can be useful, but I feel that my understanding is that Italy's invested so much in the DOC versus DOCG system that they're very invested in using those terms and continue to use them as they are still allowed to do. - Yes, no, they've invested a lot. Also, I mean, I got my diploma from I used the Italian sommelier society in 2004. And at that time there were 34 DOCGs. So it's a lot of DOCG inflation because of different changes within European, European laws. And also, it's a way of kind of signaling, we have a special wine, let's say Tintilla in Molise, for example, it's a great variety that a lot of people who are wine geeks know comes from Molise. They don't have a DOCG wine yet, but I'm sure they will one day, and when they do, it will be that variety so that people can associate it with that country just as we associated Carmenier with Chile or Malbec with Argentina after a while, right? It's also a tool to sort of get your region on the map. Yes, and I think a lot of people probably don't remember or aren't old enough to remember what drinking wine was like from Italy before the DOC system was created in like the '60s, you know, you really didn't know what you were gonna get in some cases, so. - Even I don't remember that, so, yes, no. - Yes, to our drinkers from the '50s, please write in and tell us all about your experiences with Italian bulk wine in the '50s. - Of course, now we have to talk, 'cause you brought this up, now we have to talk about the fact that there are IGT wines in Italy that that are really, really famous outside of the system. And that is actually true in Campania. I'm gonna bring it back to Campania. So there's a really, really famous wine producer from Campania whose name is Sylvia Amparato, who's a really lovely lady who does make wines with a blend of international and indigenous grape varieties. And so she is out of the DOC system and she makes them under IGT. And just saying her name so that we can talk about IGTs rather than anything else because there are also a lot of producers who choose to make a wine under IGT because, which is Indicazione Geografica Tipica and that just means indication of typical geographical I think order. And they do that because they want to make a wine that's slightly out of the rules and so they're allowed to do that to. Yeah, it really does make space for everybody, and I think Americans especially enjoy those kind of regulatory rebellion stories, but those systems do talk to each other and will eventually influence the slower -moving DOC. Well, there's nobody more rebellious than Italians. A saying that I love, it's "fattola regola, trovilingano," which means, you know, you create a rule and then you find the way around it. I mean, there's I mean, there's a lot in that country that would agree with that. - I love it. Thank you for sharing a saying. I didn't make time for that at the beginning because we had so much to cover. So thank you for making sure we got a local saying as well as a local saying. - I don't know that it's local from Campania. It's just Italian in general. I was thinking of what the Italian sayings are from Campania. So the accent from Campania is also something to think about. I mean, it's really, really fun and interesting, but it's very difficult for a non -Neapolitan to use. And oh, you know, just because you're a musician, Rose, there are great musicians from Campania and great actors. I mean, Toto, I feel like, I think he's from Campania and Sofia Loren is from Campania and Pino Daniele is from Campania. So it's a really interesting kind of creative location as well. And yes, I have had so many delightful experiences with the dialect from Napoli and various spots in Campania. But going back to the map, maybe we can talk a little bit more about the topography. We've talked a little bit about Eropenia. So maybe we could finish covering Eropenia and then maybe move to some different regions with different climates and just to give people a picture of a few different places to drink wine from. Sure. Campania is located on the Mediterranean. It is near Rome in terms of regions and as you may know mountains run right down the center of Italy. So the Apennine mountain range runs right down the center of Italy right through Campania. So the mountains are, yes, in Erpina, whereas I mentioned you can go skiing. And then the mountains continue. So Erpina has, I mean, I'm sorry, Campania has huge coastal areas. So you have the area around Naples, which is on the coast, and you can drink great wines from there from local indigenous varieties, such as let's say Corridivolpe, which means the tail of the wolf which is another white grape variety that's really exciting from Campania and Piediroso which is a red grape variety from Campania that you'll find in some of the blends around Naples. So there are wines from Naples and the islands off of the coast of Naples are the three islands that I mentioned before So these are coastal areas. Then we have-- - In Ischia, I left them away. - Ischia, and Ischia is really famous for its thermal baths. It's extremely green. It's a beautiful place to go sailing. I could say that firsthand. I don't remember going to the baths, but I know they're there. And there's a great white grape variety that grows on Ischia, which is called Bianco Lella. So imagine sitting on the coast on your boat off the coast of Ischia drinking a bottle of Bianco Leila. Sounds perfect to me. Okay, so then you go down the coast in Campania and you're on the Amalfi Coast. It could anything be more famous than the Amalfi Coast. So the Amalfi Coast, Positano, think about places like that, Rappallo, these just, you know, gorgeous places to visit. So that's a whole other part of Campania. Then you go farther down the coast to an area called Salento. A lot of American of Italian origin from Campania come from the Salento as well. In the Salento, you can find a whole bunch of grapes to drink from Avianico to these white grape varieties like Fenugina that we were talking about. I tasted some amazing funky graves from a man who grew up in Aspirinio, so he made all these interesting sparkling wines because that's what he had grown up with. In the Salento you will find another very important historical location which is called Pestum, which is also the site of kind of a volcanic explosion, ruins of volcanic In all of these places, of course, you'll also find Roman ruins everywhere you go. So that's kind of the coastal area and the coastal area around Naples. It's called the Campi Flegre, which means the Flegrean fields. And these are all for the site of former volcanoes. So there's a lot of volcanic soil in this particular region. Then we go to Vesuvius, which is the extinct volcano that exploded in 79 AD. And this is probably the most famous volcanic explosion in the world. And when it exploded, it covered not only all of Campania and all of Italy, but apparently the volcanic ash went as far as Siberia. So all throughout Italy, you will have these fine top soils that are volcanic, but the undersoils are not necessarily volcanic, right? So around Vesuvius, yes, it's volcanic, but not everywhere in Campania has deep volcanic soils. It has volcanic topsoil. - Can you talk a little bit about what volcanic soils, how would the effect they have on wine? - Sure, of course. So, and then I'll get back to the other parts of company because it's such a rich region and there's just so much to say. So what happens when a vine grows in volcanic soil? So in my experience, when you're drinking a wine that you know comes from volcanic soil, you kind of get this, what I like to say, heightened aromatics. So everything is kind of brighter, fresher, more distinct in terms of the aromas and the flavors. I find them very linear, so kind of the flavors go directly onto your mouth rather than broader, more horizontal. I'm not sure if that on the radio and podcast, that kind of description is clear, but it's really heightened aromatics. So it's everything is kind of more intense. What's your view of what volcanic soils bring? - Oh, you know, I feel like I'm always evaluating each volcanic region kind of separately according to all of the other things that go along with it. I think I'm still learning the answer to that question, but definitely it's deeper than just, oh, is this wine taste smoky? - Right, no, I don't get it, yeah. - So it's kind of the initial thought that I think people expect. Oh, no, it's not that. They think of a visual of something as like, oh, okay, you know, I'm going to be able to taste some, some kind of. No, it's not like that. I'm going to taste wet rock. I mean, you can often taste a lot of minerality, but that's the grape variety, not just necessarily the fact that it grows in volcanic soil. In my opinion, it's just kind of like a catalyst, you know, has like a catalytic effect on everything else that you're going to get in a wine. So it just kind of makes the aromatics more important and brighter. Like the fruit is brighter. Everything's kind of brighter. Also, when I think about volcanic soil, often you may be at elevation. So it's also you have to kind of figure out, am I at elevation? And what I'm tasting is the elevation rather than the soils. Like this recently I was tasting a Nero Davola, which was, you know, it's a big red grape variety from Sicily that I drink very infrequently. And it was so fresh and bright and acidic. And I said, just, you know, are you at elevation? Because this to me is like that alpine quality to a wine that, you know, is just so interesting and different from what you get. And I was like, yeah, I'm about 600 meters above sea level. So that's what I think sometimes you find in wines that grow on volcanic soils. Like think about some of the wines from Edna. Yes. What I have noticed is that I like them. If you're talking about a region in general, there's an interest. There's a kind of pizzazz. Think of wines from the Canary Islands. And a lot of times when I'm learning about something, I'll say, "Oh, wow, this is really great. What's special about this?" often the answer is a volcano. Absolutely. Which are very fun to learn about. Very fun and exciting. So let's talk about Vesuvias Vesuvius that exploded, but there are still wines and grapes growing there today. So on Vesuvius, there are two main wines that are made, and they're called lacrime di Christi, which means the tears of Christ. And one is the white, the bianco, and the other is the red. And so the white is usually made from another indigenous grape variety called chepretone that's blended. they also have other indigenous grape varieties that grow there. So it's really exciting, I think, that on this, you know, extinct volcano, they're still growing grapevine, you know, grapevines today. So those are kind of the parts of Campania, but we haven't talked at all yet about the region of Cazerta, where I told you that this Italian version of Versailles is located. So Cazerta is a really interesting little town that I got to visit a few years ago, and they make some really funky indigenous grape varieties, which I'm sure you've had, Rose, but not everybody has yet, but so there's Palagralo Bianco and Palagralo Rosso. Then they have another one called Casavecchia, which is a red wine. I personally really like Palagralo Bianco as a white grape variety, Sima Lois is a great producer of that. He's imported locally. So just some really funky grape varieties also from Cazerta. So you have all of these different regions within Campania to visit and wines to taste, whether you're tasting on the coast and the Saño is a huge area for fungina, for example, and for Alianico, which is where Benevento, the town that we There are many people from the United States, particularly from New York, who are of Italian origin, their families are from Benevento. And that's in the Saño, where you'll find Alianico del Taburno, Falenguina del Saño, and many other really lovely wines. So it's a really, really interesting area. I love Pallagrello narrow. I think a Pallagrello was one of my first southern Italian ones that really blew my mind. It's so complex. It's so fascinating. And I really made me want to find out everything. It was one of those one of my early moments. Oh, I've never heard of that before. Of course, I now know that that's going to continue for the rest of my life. For the rest of your life. I've been doing this a long time. How many great varieties are there in Italy? Oh, I know, you know, that are registered in the national registry, I think between 350 and four, but I mean, there are at least 800 or a thousand. I mean, no country has as many indigenous grape varieties as Italy does, and they're always, you know, recuing old varieties that are extinct. I just, with this tasting that I had done where for Epina, I met someone who told me about the patriarchy in Epina, those grape righties. And he also told me about a grape variety that he's just brought back, a white grape variety called Rovicello. And I think he's maybe the only producer of it. I think he has maybe one hectare, maybe two, maybe there are two people in all of the world that are growing that grape variety. So no matter how many we know, we're always going to learn something new. That's what I of a useful Italian vocabulary, Mison, Tito, I've never heard of that. - Oh, right, yes, that's your Mison. - Yes, and I like to say that Italy is kind of sommelier kryptonite. If you're the kind of sommelier that expects to master something because it's just not possible. And once you realize that, then I think the fun can begin because you can just jump in and just learn something, just start. It very much keeps you humble, but also keeps me fascinated and delighted. And I'm also always so impressed when I need someone who focuses on Italy because it really is something that is so vast. So, bravo. - I had the good fortune of living there for 15 years. So I had real firsthand experience of the whole thing. So that gives me kind of a, it gave me a leg up in sort of understanding things, because I understood it from kind of a local perspective rather than trying to learn from the outside. Like when I'm trying to learn everything about wines from Portugal, which I love and have lots of indigenous varieties and are really exciting, I don't have that same kind of like, oh, I remember when my friend talked about that or they brought that, you know, for a holiday. So it's just, I think it's just time and as you say, love and you know, interest because it's really exciting to find things that are new and different and they're all really delicious. I mean, that's at the end of the day, what matters, right? These are great, great varieties and just a plug for these wines from Campania, they are these whites and reds that I mentioned are even wines that you can And so there are wines you can sell or and keep, you know, you could buy a six pack of something today and drink a couple now, drink a couple in 10 years and keep some for an occasion in 15 or 20. So Alianico is really a grape variety that can age as can fiano and greco, two of Italy's white grape varieties that are really age worthy wines that change over time and just reveal the beauty that they have in them. - It's fantastic. So going back to those kind of main Campania varieties that you brought up at the beginning of the show, tell us a little bit about what those wines taste like, generally. - Sure. So let's start with Falanguina because it's the most approachable, I think, for a younger demographic. And it's a little sweeter, in my opinion, often the way it's vinified. People identify it maybe a little bit, you know, extra more extra dry if they're doing, let's say a Charmotte method or, you know, just a still white wine to drink for the summer. So Phalangina is fresh with its sparkling. It's usually made in the Charmotte method. So the same method of Prosecco is made in the tank rather than the traditional method. It is fresh, it has, you know, light bubbles, it's got a lot of white fruit on it, and I find it very floral. I really like phalanguina, especially as the summer is coming, you know, I could probably drink a whole bottle soon. I mean, it's a little early here today, but you know, the more we talk about this, I'm thinking, oh, so that's phalanguina. Then the other two white grape varieties are fiano and greco. So fiano de villino is one of, I think, Italy's finest white wines, absolutely. And fiano is apparently the part of the blend of the wine that was most famous in Roman times called falernium. And fiano is a really interesting grape that apparently bees like to eat a lot. So it's very sweet as the grape itself. Fiano also has this beautiful kind of bitter finish, which I find on Italian wines, this kind of almondy note that I love, and that if you're doing a blind tasting, it's like you taste a fan, and you're like, oh, I know that's either a fiano or a greco because of that great bitterness at the end. And so you can kind of, you know, get that in a parlor game, right? So fiano, I think, is very structured. And as it ages, it gets a little bit petrally. It gets a little more of this bitter almond note. It just reveals beautiful layers of kind of hazelnuts and everything that really makes you want to drink that wine or at least makes me want to drink that wine. Greco is the first grape variety that actually ever made me cry. I remember I was drinking tasting a fiano at the Cappagna Pavilion in Vignette only one year. And I like felt ridiculous. I'm like, with this producer, I barely know, you know, and I find a little tear is kind of dripping down my eye and I thought, I'm just ridiculous that I moved by this great Friday, but this is a true story. And so Greco is kind of everything I said about piano, less bitter and more minerality, more salinity, sort of a lot of kind of texture on it and just beautiful, beautiful, beautiful white wines that can age, you know, and are made in these amazing, Greco only grows in eight towns in Campania, you know, amazing history, much smaller production than Fiano, which also grows on they think in 29 towns, 26 maybe, but you know, not so many, but Greco only comes from these eight areas Greco di Tufo. So beautiful, beautiful wines, both of them. And then so before we move to the red, I just want to say that I also cried at the Italy. Not from wine from Campania. Unfortunately, for today, it was a Ribola Jala, a skin contact from Slovenia. And I was standing there was the last day, I think, so much had been happening. We didn't even run into each other. The wine fair is huge. And, you know, it was kind of a rock star wine that I tried before and knew was good. I was completely unprepared to just be weeping in the hall. So I think, I think the Italians would approve of our show of emotion. We're the only ones who feel silly about it. Yeah, it was, yeah, I tasted a lot of ribola gel. I went to the Slovenian area too, I love those wines. Really fun, really, really fun wines. And so these wines from Campania, really amazing, amazing wines, lots of great producers, many small, some, a couple a couple really big powerhouses in the region, but many, many small and generally family run wineries. Campania has fewer cooperative wineries than some other regions in Italy. There are a couple of co -ops and I'm all for co -ops. I am not against cooperative winemaking. It's a social tradition of Italy, 55 % of Italian viticulture is made with through co -ops. co -op, so it's a really big part of their industry. But in Campania, it's mostly family -run wineries and many that have been the same family for hundreds of years. - So many generations back. - Yeah, many generations. So those are the whites, the main whites. And then we have Alianico. So Alianico should absolutely be considered one of Italy's best red wine grape varieties. It's together with San Givese and Nebiolo. It is the red grape variety of the South, in my opinion. It has loads of spice and pepper and at times kind of leathery animal skin notes. It depends on how it's vinified, of course. It's beautiful. It can age. I find that some producers are making much more approachable versions today than they did in the past. So you don't have to wait 10 years. Yeah, there's a lot of tanning on Yannico, but it is just a really beautiful, exciting, and I think sexy wine. I mean, I really, I really love Yannico 'cause it also has a lot of acidity and minerality for a red wine. - One of my favorite wine stories is the fact that, you know, here's this Southern Italian wine and during France's problems with phylloxera but also just other moments when they felt like their wines need a little boost they weren't ripe enough. Back before there were these regulations that strictly controlled where your wine was from there was this shipping of the Alianico to France to correct the vintage. Yeah there's a lot of shipping of Italian wine to France in the past yes to correct their wine a lot. Yes an Alianico because of its wonderful deep color and structure and big, big fruit. It's a big, big wine. I understand that there are three main terroirs for Alianico, one of them is in Basilicata. Between the two that are in Campania, could you compare and contrast briefly? Sure. I asked this question of some producers recently and they gave me their answer. I asked Claudio and Gianluigi, and they both answer me. - From your pinia, Claudio? - Yes. - Oh, I just, I ran into him on the-- - I love him. So, yes, Alianico grows both in Campania and in Basilicata, Alianico del Vultore, which is also amazing. I tasted some great ones, especially from Elena Fucci at Upper Hawaii, in Vinita this year. But there are different clones, also of Alianico, so it's not just the terroir, it's also which clones they're using. So there are different clones of alianico, and that's one of the differences between alianico that grows in Taurasi, let's say, and alianico del taburno, which is in the Sanyu region, but it's really the terroir. So they're pretty similar in terms of their grapes, the form of the grape variety and the structure of the grape, but there are two different biotypes apparently from what they say. So in Taburno, they actually have a lower yield than in Taurasi, which is interesting. The Dio Cigi in Taburno, the province is actually Benevento and the area is called Sanyo, But the aging of the Taurasi is much longer than Alianico del Tamburno, which is the main difference, the aging. So aging, the clones that they use, and of course the terroir, is slightly different. So get yourself an Alianico from these two different regions, which are called Alianico del Tamburno, which is in the province of Benevento and Taurasi, which is in the province of Avelino, but the area is called Irpigna for Taurasi and the Saño for Alianico del Taburno. - So that's your homework. Buy those wines, drink them side by side, and then write to us at Moto Dewberry and tell us what you thought the difference was between the wines. - Great. - So moving into the future of Campania thinking about what their challenges and opportunities are maybe in the market with worldwide recognition but also in terms of climate change with this indigenous grape culture there can you speak a little bit to the power of indigenous grapes in this moment of climate change? Okay so big topics so in this moment of climate change I think the question behind your question is, are they going to change for more disease resistant varieties, which a lot of regions have to do. I don't think that that's what they're going to do in Campania, because these great varieties have grown in this terroir forever. And in terms of climate change, some of the areas, for example, in Pina, has a lot of elevation possibilities, so they can grow higher, right? They can grow up, which is one of the problems. So the vineyards that are closer to the sea have, you know, a lot more problems because of the rising sea levels. So what will happen there? I am not sure, but you know, hopefully producers are moving towards more sustainable practices and their vineyards. And a lot of that will hopefully mitigate some of the impacts of climate change. I think also they have to harvest earlier, even earlier than before. Perhaps they have to change slightly the style of the wines that they're growing. I doubt that they're going to grow up their indigenous varieties and plant disease resistant new hybrid varietals. I don't see that. I'm actually thinking more of Campania, since they've really continuously honored those indigenous varieties even planted on their own wood stock with the old vines and the old training systems, I wonder if that institutional knowledge of vine varieties could be transferred to other places. And I wonder if Alianico, for instance, could be seen in other terroirs where they have to change the variety that they're growing. Well, I mean, that absolutely, I could see that. Also, Arlianico grows not just in Basilicata. It's most famous in Basilicata, but you'll find it in Puglia. You'll find it in Molise. I haven't seen Arlianico in Abruzzo, but it's entirely possible that it will also grow in other places. Yes, I definitely think that people can learn from what's happening in Campania because they are still very close to their origins as farmers, right? There's a lot of that and a lot of handworked and difficult soils and difficult problems. The one thing I can say about people from Campania and Irpina in general, Irpina was the home of a horrific earthquake in the 1980s where thousands of people were killed and the entire town So they're really hearty people and resilient. I think they're really very resilient people. So, you know, I bet on them. - Yes, I would too, I would too. What advice do you have for someone who's dreaming about planning a trip to Campania? - Oh, get your ticket right now and be adventurous. So go visit Naples and have Neapolitan pizza and go visit. So in Naples there's a culture of interest in death and skulls and you know everything that has to do with cemeteries and it's really kind of not morbid but exciting. They just kind of live with that as part of life which of course it is. And so there's these amazing tours of kind of the catacombs of Naples to go it. And if you're interested in the crush, for example, there are streets within Naples where they make figures for the crush for holidays that are famous throughout the world. There's also streets in Naples that are amazingly famous for beautiful ties. I mean, it's a fantastic, exciting city. So I would go to Naples for a couple of days. Then I would definitely try to go to the islands off of Naples, Capri, Prasiden, Ischia, if you have time and you should make time. Of course, you should go to the Amalfi Coast if you have the ability. And I would visit Pompeii immediately. It's really exciting. I had a fantastic time. I can't wait to take my son to visit Pompeii. It's a really interesting place to visit. And then if you have even more time or on a second trip, I would make plans to go to Caserta and visit the Reggio di Caserta, which is the Versailles of Italy. And I would visit that area, and I would visit Erpigna, and I would go to some of these wineries and the Michelin star restaurants that are located there. And maybe I'd go skiing, depending on the time of year. So I really think that Campania merits one, one, two, three, four, five vacations. I mean, honestly, you could spend the rest of your life only going on vacation in Italy and always be happy. - I understand, Susanna, that you offer individual client services to people who are learning about wine, building their wine collections and planning vacations to Italy. I'm sold, I want your advice. Tell us more about your work and how our listeners can contact you for advice. - Sure, so I have worked with Italy or about Italy for a really long time and it is my passion so I do a couple of different things for companies or wineries or regions I can represent you I can do presentations I can translate for your producers I can organize trips in the United States and different kinds of events for consumers I can help you plan your trip I can help you fill your wine cellar I can help you create your restaurant list if you want and you know, if we're really want to have a fun time, we can also do Italian lessons about grapes and you know, lessons about Italian wine. So I do that too. And I have a company called Vignetto, V -I -G -N -E -T -O Communications and it's .com. You can find me there. I also write a blog called Avinare. Avinare means to pour wine into your glass and swirl it around to prepare your glass to receive more wine. And that's A -V -V -I -N -A -R -E. I'm on Instagram. You can find me on Facebook. And you can DM me and or contact Rose and she can help you find me. And Susanna, you also have a podcast. Please tell us where people listen. I do. So I have a podcast, you can get it wherever you get your podcasts. I'm on Apple, I'm on Spotify, but I uploaded it to Podbean, actually, was where I have my podcast and it's called Vignetto, just like my company, and the first series I did was called the Sustainability Series, and I did it with Sunny Gandara, who is a natural wine expert, and we talked all about sustainability with different people in the industry coming at it from different angles. So that was really interesting. And then I did a second series on wine books. Yes, thank you so much for giving us this this knowledge today. I can't wait to have you back on the show and just ask you some more questions. Like what was it like becoming one of the only non -Italian AIS sommeliers? Do you have the outfit? I have so many questions for you. next time I'll wear it 100 % if it still fits. I find the air in the United States, this makes you fat compared to Italy. You know, you just move to Italy and you're like, oh, okay. It fits the mountains. It's the mountains. It's just the air you breathe. But yes, I have the outfit. I have my testive. I always wear my little clip. Yeah, it was one of the proudest moments of my life, to be honest. I love those sommeliers, just watching them doing the synchronizing pouring. Oh yeah, they're amazing. - Yeah, the first time I encountered this and just seeing everybody with these long aprons that kind of look like a monk's skirt and this wonderful, almost like this medallion. And I think the first time I saw one of these people, I thought that someone was just really bringing some amazing goth style to the vintage affair. And I said, "Oh, good for you dressing up." And then I realized, "No, this is a thing." - This is a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, really proud of that. Actually, it was my, yeah, I mean, I usually have my friend's certificate somewhere in my house. Anyway, yeah, very proud moment of my life and whenever you want, I'll put on the outfit and show you. Thank you so much, Susanna. Thank you. Thank you to all of our listeners. Go get yourself some wands from Campania, book your ticket and wherever you go and whatever you like to drink, always remember to enjoy your life and to never stop learning. - Absolutely, thank you. (upbeat music) - Follow MotoDBariate on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok for even more unique and encouraging drinks and language content. If you'd love for the show to continue and grow, support MotoDBariate on Patreon and unlock bonus episodes. Find out more at MotoDBariate .com, where you can also read the blog. Music for the podcast was composed by Arcilia Prosperi and performed by the band OU. You can purchase their recordings at OUMusic .BandCamp .com. (upbeat music)  

Music composed by Ersilia Prosperi for the band Ou: www.oumusic.bandcamp.com

Produced, recorded and edited by Rose Thomas Bannister

Audio assistance by Steve Silverstein